question on units numbers?

[jo the greek]

I looked but did nt managed to find anything
so if doesnt matters yu can yu inform me about yur plans on the number of each unit ?wich is going the largest number of fighters in unit? and if yu will approach it realistic?
for example some nations had much more access to fighters and horses than others.

[Miraj]

This is an interesting question and quite important indeed. Currently the only real change has been that heavy cavalry numbers are around 60 instead of 80 (huge unit size). So, thats about it. Inf is just the regular 160 or 120 variation.

Of course I hope we can really detail this sooner or later so that nations with lower quality troops can field larger numbers of them per unit. For example a high quality unit of heavily armoured inf shouldn't have the same unit size as say a "fanatic" unit like ghazis who are supposed to represent low to zero armour but large numbers.

However, when there are over 300 units in the EDU involved.. its best to leave this detailing for perhaps for post 1.0 since we can only ask so much of our man AlphaDelta (he would be the one who would have to do this work).

[jo the greek]

i see
well i think if there are so many units it be will difficult but when it will have finished it can give more strategic flexibility to each nation.
for example the crusaders low numbers general but more heavily armored
in comparison to arabs that had bigger numbers ( i think) or indian states can ave the most big number in a unit cause there were more populated areas
and mongol and turkic states can have more horseman in a unit than others .

[Miraj]

i see
well i think if there are so many units it be will difficult but when it will have finished it can give more strategic flexibility to each nation.
for example the crusaders low numbers general but more heavily armored
in comparison to arabs that had bigger numbers ( i think) or indian states can ave the most big number in a unit cause there were more populated areas
and mongol and turkic states can have more horseman in a unit than others .

Yeah. Me and Ahiga were discussing tweaking the KoJ to have more powerful units in general (higher morale, greater charge stats for cav) but balancing it by making them lower in number. So it really feels like you're outnumbered like a unit of 60 powerful latin knights vs a unit of 100 light turkomans.

[Son of Mao]

This would be a great area to balance the ERE

[Lupu]

Why should crusaders have better men?
they should be better tahn enemy light troops, but giving for example latin knights less men and higher stats than royal mamluks woul just not be right.

[Miraj]

Well it depends. Of course I dont mean the elites. Ayyubid elites are generally better armoured and discplined mamluks who are considerably better at melee combat.

Crusader cavalry and shock charge ability is definitely one of the best in the game - or perhaps the best. It's no small secret that crusaders excelled in heavy infantry and more discplined rank and file compared to their muslim counterparts. However, as in BC (Ayyubid VS KoJ), as you go up the tiers the Muslim solder gets just as good and at the top tier almost better (the heavy mamluks). But when comes to tier 1 & 2 the ayyubids units suck compare to the tier 1 & 2 koj units.

[Ahiga]

Like Mirage says, the prospect interests us, but is a bit too heavy for a 1.0 development. A big draw of unit numbers is the chance to reflect the historical strengths of a faction's military use. Beyond just armor, it would make it so you might be fielding far less of a unit type than your enemy for the same cost, and so would pretty much have to develop a new tactic to defeat that unit, rather than just produce a counterpart of it. Examples of who could benefit from an 'above normal unit size' include:

• Makurian & Indian Longbowmen - Allowing them to truly used massed foot archery as a tactic.
• Ghazni foot archers - Ghazni was big on foot archery as well.
• Western Turkomans - Khwarezm, Seljuks, and the Rum all use these guys, and all three were big on horse archer.
• Quilted Crossbowmen of the Koj - They kind of used 'massed crossbowmen.'
• Omani Swordsmen units - Arabian Peninsula Arabs seemed to as often use swords as spears.
• Ghazi - for the reasons Mirage mentioned.

While the quality of the unit would likely remain close to what it was prior to the number change [It makes no sense to increase the number of men if you make the unit a lot weaker than it's regular sized peer], it would require some editing. Hindu Longbowmen are pretty damn vicious at ranged archer at 120 men alone...they'd probably butcher if 150 (Though they should be 150).

[IrAr]

So in normal unit size, does 120 mean 80?

[Kiki52]

I think the difference between huge and normal unit sizes is that is it half.
If you have 150 units, it translates into 75 units. If you have 120 units, it is 60 units.

Are you going to do it for KoJ style like what CA did with Kingdom's Crusades where you have some units for KoJ have like 60 men but have very high attack and defense, high stamina and morale, and 2 HP each like Canons of the Holy Sepulchre?

I did read somewhere that Ayyubids had roughly the same number of troops as KoJ during Saladin's campaign in a picture someone on this forum posted online, maybe 50,000 troops total. I don't think it'd be fairly accurate to say that Muslim armies would be 100,000,000,000 and the Crusaders have like 300 yet each Crusader would kill 1,000,000 Muslim soldiers like it was some CGI movie.

CA got too much into it, it wasn't true Apaches in their Americans campaign that had that large number, it would be truer and better if CA had Apaches like 25 men in a horde, fairly powerful attack, and 2 HP each and be able to defeat their Spanish counterparts in smaller numbers b/c they held off American and Spanish troops until the late 1800s but I hope BC doesn't turn into a strange set of Eurocentrisms that are fairly common in video and computer games.

I don't think the idea that 'native' or less armored units come in massive number is accurate. Maybe normal unit sizes, but cheaper. But I like the idea of larger numbers of units over things that did have massive amounts of units. Like India (Rajputs) it makes sense to have Hindu Longbow men to have 150 per horde but of course that is BC teams balancing decision. Maybe their longbowmen have less attack strength than the Muslim armies do, but can make up for it in numbers.
Byzantium though doesn't need to have small unit sizes because Constantinople had 300,000 people in it, which can probably translate to thousands of profession troops.

I know the Mongols had 300,000 true Mongol horsemen in the whole horde (not counting conscripts from their conquered territories) so do you think Mongols would come in 40 horses per unit? That would totally kill. However, those 300,000 Mongols were spread throughout China, Korea, Middle East, Poland, Russia etc. not all in one place.

[Miraj]

I think the difference between huge and normal unit sizes is that is it half.
If you have 150 units, it translates into 75 units. If you have 120 units, it is 60 units.

Are you going to do it for KoJ style like what CA did with Kingdom's Crusades where you have some units for KoJ have like 60 men but have very high attack and defense, high stamina and morale, and 2 HP each like Canons of the Holy Sepulchre?

I did read somewhere that Ayyubids had roughly the same number of troops as KoJ during Saladin's campaign in a picture someone on this forum posted online, maybe 50,000 troops total. I don't think it'd be fairly accurate to say that Muslim armies would be 100,000,000,000 and the Crusaders have like 300 yet each Crusader would kill 1,000,000 Muslim soldiers like it was some CGI movie.

CA got too much into it, it wasn't true Apaches in their Americans campaign that had that large number, it would be truer and better if CA had Apaches like 25 men in a horde, fairly powerful attack, and 2 HP each and be able to defeat their Spanish counterparts in smaller numbers b/c they held off American and Spanish troops until the late 1800s but I hope BC doesn't turn into a strange set of Eurocentrisms that are fairly common in video and computer games.

I don't think the idea that 'native' or less armored units come in massive number is accurate. Maybe normal unit sizes, but cheaper. But I like the idea of larger numbers of units over things that did have massive amounts of units. Like India (Rajputs) it makes sense to have Hindu Longbow men to have 150 per horde but of course that is BC teams balancing decision. Maybe their longbowmen have less attack strength than the Muslim armies do, but can make up for it in numbers.
Byzantium though doesn't need to have small unit sizes because Constantinople had 300,000 people in it, which can probably translate to thousands of profession troops.

I know the Mongols had 300,000 true Mongol horsemen in the whole horde (not counting conscripts from their conquered territories) so do you think Mongols would come in 40 horses per unit? That would totally kill. However, those 300,000 Mongols were spread throughout China, Korea, Middle East, Poland, Russia etc. not all in one place.

I agree with pretty much everything you say. I think you read a little too much into my statement though. The idea for the smaller unit sizes for KoJ is not to represent "superheros" no more than Ghorids jihadis are super heroes in India. The point is more to give the KoJ a decisive disadvantage, since the KoJ having the same number of horsemen ore soldiers as a native Muslim faction is innaccurate. This is not to say they will be like 300 Christians at the gates of Jerusalem. It's just the basic historical fact that a faction like the KoJ had to fight greater numbers, as is the case with any invading force far from home.

I think it needs not be said that BC is the farthest thing on TWC - or perhaps PC games in general - from Eurocentricism.

[AlphaDelta]

Unit sizes are defined in the EDU using the "low" figure. "Huge" setting multiplies that low figure by 2.5 I believe. Normal setting multiplies that figure by 1.25

For example, swordsmen are 48 in the EDU, this translates to 120 on huge (48 x 2.5) or 60 on normal (48 x 1.5) . Spearmen are set as 60 in the EDU, this translates to 150 on huge (60 x 2.5) or 75 on normal (48 x 1.25).

Cheers

[IrAr]

Thanks, Iron-Stache!