Diversity Vs. National Unity

[EmperorJulian]

I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm becoming increasingly concerned about the willingness of US politicians (and citizens) to sacrifice long term national unity and stability for temporary benefits both economic and ideological. On the one hand you have businessmen eagerly importing labor from both legal and illegal sources in order to cut labor costs and provide cheaper products. While simultaneously you have large segments of the population that have absolutely fallen in love (if you will) with diversity, multiculturalism etc. The ramifications of these actions might not be as bad if it weren't for the fact that the people involved have whole heartedly blinded themselves to the potentially long-term negative aspects of their behavior. It seems a majority of the US population has no historical sense, can't think more than 3 minutes ahead and believes if something is good in the here and now, well it must be good forever!

I find it very interesting that while moderation is considered admirable in most all aspects of life, it is completely disregarded and even attacked as bigoted when diversity is involved. The same goes for the importation of endless legions of uneducated cheap labor. Apparently opposition to this gets a person labeled an isolationist/protectionist, or discriminatory, or even worse, heartless. It's as though the entire country is engulfed in a reality distortion field when it comes to these issues.

For my part, I believe those pushing for more immigration and more diversity will be those held most responsible for the destruction of the United States in the history books of the future. I say this because, as I just mentioned, we have diversity without responsibility, we have immigration without moderation. What we do, we do to the extreme and we make no accommodations for the future. We lie to ourselves, we avoid the hard questions, we pretend everything is okay when it is not, we rationalize our choices based upon emotion rather than logic. In the end I feel we are in effect orchestrating our own downfall.

The question I have, is why? Is it really so important to have cheap labor that we will endanger the long term viability of our country to get it? Is atoning for White Guilt or some other transgression so important that we're willing to abandon our own culture, social ideologies and language to accommodate persons from south of the border? It's gotten so bad that even arguing for a common National Language is now considered racist. And anyone who insists that immigrants must conform to the culture of their adoptive homeland will surely rue the day they ever spoke on the subject. What ever happened to common sense and National Pride? How can anyone expect any country to survive when the meager forces of unification are far outstripped by the tendencies towards particularism? The US ceased to be a melting pot long ago, if we're not careful I fear we shall soon find ourselves obsolete as a Nation as well. What say you?

[Valentin the II]

So.... How is this hurting you again?
The only negative effects of diversity are in the early stages of integration, in future generations these people should be fully integrated in the society and become a part of the local population.

Look at Israel, we have people from all over the world, and from different clases (poor, rich and rabi ) and yet we are fine.
BTW imigration is the thing that made USA what it is today.

[Medicus]

Well, at least Australia has a government and people that are looking towards the future, and the troubles that are ahead.

We, too, have had our share of voices against multiculturalism/immigration, and they were shot down in flames. English will always be the national language of this nation, and it will be a century before the parliament has a majority of non-white members.

[Ummagumma]

I pity you. I really do. I would say more, but you are not worth me getting banned from the site.

On the one hand you have businessmen eagerly importing labor from both legal and illegal sources in order to cut labor costs and provide cheaper products.

Well, that is due to the consumer-driven capitalist society. What do you expect?

these actions might not be as bad if it weren't for the fact that the people involved have whole heartedly blinded themselves to the potentially long-term negative aspects of their behavior

Such as? Do you feel threatened, poor little white boy?

It seems a majority of the US population has no historical sense

Indeed . Some seem to have forgotten that the entire country in the way we know it today was founded upon immigrants.

The same goes for the importation of endless legions of uneducated cheap labor.

Would you do the job, for those wages?
...
Thought not. Put up or shut up.

the entire country is engulfed in a reality distortion field when it comes to these issues.

Yes. It seems you are. Never mind, you can still educate yourself. It's never too late.

For my part, I believe those pushing for more immigration and more diversity will be those held most responsible for the destruction of the United States in the history books of the future.

Really, what can any sane person say in response to a statement like that? You really have some issues, and I do wish you the best in resolving them.

I say this because, as I just mentioned, we have diversity without responsibility, we have immigration without moderation. What we do, we do to the extreme and we make no accommodations for the future. We lie to ourselves, we avoid the hard questions, we pretend everything is okay when it is not, we rationalize our choices based upon emotion rather than logic. In the end I feel we are in effect orchestrating our own downfall.

After all, you are the master race, hey Bub. What is more logical than your own obvious value and therefore your need to hold all the others in their place.

I could continue, but I'm sure you get the picture. Please, try to get yourself sorted. I thought your 'Thanksgiving' was some sort of festival that is to demonstrate the fact that most of you are immigrants, and a demonstration of how you should treat one another, and that diversity can only strengthen a nation/culture.

Last time I heard anything like this was from a self-proclaimed and flag waving neo-Nazi.

[Segestan]

I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm becoming increasingly concerned about the willingness of US politicians (and citizens) to sacrifice long term national unity and stability for temporary benefits both economic and ideological. On the one hand you have businessmen eagerly importing labor from both legal and illegal sources in order to cut labor costs and provide cheaper products. While simultaneously you have large segments of the population that have absolutely fallen in love (if you will) with diversity, multiculturalism etc. The ramifications of these actions might not be as bad if it weren't for the fact that the people involved have whole heartedly blinded themselves to the potentially long-term negative aspects of their behavior. It seems a majority of the US population has no historical sense, can't think more than 3 minutes ahead and believes if something is good in the here and now, well it must be good forever!

I find it very interesting that while moderation is considered admirable in most all aspects of life, it is completely disregarded and even attacked as bigoted when diversity is involved. The same goes for the importation of endless legions of uneducated cheap labor. Apparently opposition to this gets a person labeled an isolationist/protectionist, or discriminatory, or even worse, heartless. It's as though the entire country is engulfed in a reality distortion field when it comes to these issues.

For my part, I believe those pushing for more immigration and more diversity will be those held most responsible for the destruction of the United States in the history books of the future. I say this because, as I just mentioned, we have diversity without responsibility, we have immigration without moderation. What we do, we do to the extreme and we make no accommodations for the future. We lie to ourselves, we avoid the hard questions, we pretend everything is okay when it is not, we rationalize our choices based upon emotion rather than logic. In the end I feel we are in effect orchestrating our own downfall.

The question I have, is why? Is it really so important to have cheap labor that we will endanger the long term viability of our country to get it? Is atoning for White Guilt or some other transgression so important that we're willing to abandon our own culture, social ideologies and language to accommodate persons from south of the border? It's gotten so bad that even arguing for a common National Language is now considered racist. And anyone who insists that immigrants must conform to the culture of their adoptive homeland will surely rue the day they ever spoke on the subject. What ever happened to common sense and National Pride? How can anyone expect any country to survive when the meager forces of unification are far outstripped by the tendencies towards particularism? The US ceased to be a melting pot long ago, if we're not careful I fear we shall soon find ourselves obsolete as a Nation as well. What say you?

I say: Excellent post. But what you concern you're self with has already been lost. It's all been done many times in the name of righteous justice. America was founded on immigration and capitalism and these seemly noble ideas of free speech , and the rights of self- expression has been and will lead America down the road to self-destruction. History will not be kind.The modern world is a poly-glot hoard. Religion demanded it. Capitalism demanded it. Socialism demanded it. Communism demanded it. Technology demanded it. It is the NWO.
The massive social re-organization of the Western world and even the whole world after WW II has been accomplished by a very clever use of accounting methods of the monetary authorites around the world, massive growth in capital simply causes these sort of migrations. Individual needs and industry demands it. It's a fools game , one that in the end only leads to the innocent sufferings of millions and even billions. I truly believe we have come to the present through good intentions of the world leaders, at least in the main, but those grand ideas of peace on earth will meet head-on with reality.

[Bokks]

I say: Excellent post. But what you concern you're self with has already been lost. It's all been done many times in the name of righteous justice. America was founded on immigration and capitalism and these seemly noble ideas of free speech , and the rights of self- expression has been and will lead America down the road to self-destruction. History will not be kind.The modern world is a poly-glot hoard. Religion demanded it. Capitalism demanded it. Socialism demanded it. Communism demanded it. Technology demanded it. It is the NWO.
The massive social re-organization of the Western world and even the whole world after WW II has been accomplished by a very clever use of accounting methods of the monetary authorites around the world, massive growth in capital simply causes these sort of migrations. Individual needs and industry demands it. It's a fools game , one that in the end only leads to the innocent sufferings of millions and even billions. I truly believe we have come to the present through good intentions of the world leaders, at least in the main, but those grand ideas of peace on earth will meet head-on with reality.

I'm confused, it would seem like you've blamed the current way of life on every form of government except theocracy. It is truly the post-WWII climate that has so successfully destabilized everything in the world or is it merely social evolution?

Onto the main discussion, I would say that these fears are ill-founded, althought they do have a certain resonance in mainstream America. We've been in a blip, that we had a great deal of cultural awareness and so strove for a mulit-cultural society. Perrenialism is now creeping back in, notice how last year "Merry Christmas" finally super-ceded "Happy Holidays"? Society works in cycles, and now we're on the beginning years of integration. Soon the "cheap" labor from Mexico will create a new generation of patriotic Americans, and the children will be similarly complaining about Sudanese, Morrocan or Russian immigrants like many are complaining about Mexicans now. Social revolutions, they spring up and disperse as technology slows down and culture finally catches up.

It's strange to think about, but first you need a generation of Americans, then you get a generation of patriotic Americans. It's always been that way.

In the words of Sam Clemens (Mark Twain) "a man will always fight for his country, rarely will he fight for his boarding house." Right now we really are the boarding house for migrant workers. Twenty years from now, they will call themselves American, and you won't be able to tell from their accent anything different.

[EmperorJulian]

Hey don't let fear of being banned from the site stop you Ummagumma, I'm actually quite interested in what you have to say, I wouldn't have posted otherwise.

Firstly, as I expected my legitimate fears of cultural and political destruction have been translated into some sort of fear of people with dark skin. It wouldn't and doesn't matter to me what color they are. It seems to be an axiom (amongst some folks) that people would be okay with massive legal/illegal immigration if everyone had pale skin, to me such considerations are of virtually no importance. The Doctor did make an interesting point, in that I didn't know Australia had a National Language (guess that makes you guys a bunch of racists eh?) and if you have a non white majority in a century, as you say, that would not bother me if I was there so long as they were loyal to Australia, her heritage and culture and not beholden to some foreign power.

Another point I'd like to make is that the forces pushing towards integration and assimilation in the US today are very weak. Everyone is caught up in celebrating differences and paying no attention at all to what the consequences of those actions may be. Illegals especially often have virtually no reason to assimilate, bi-lingual government agencies and literature are very common, isolated ethnic enclaves easy to access as well as options for work and education in Spanish. They can also easily communicate and support or get support from people in their home countries, a feat that no one coming through Ellis Island in 1920 could have hoped to accomplish.

I'm also impressed Ummagumma that you equate language/culture with race. As I expected. No such link need exist by default. And my concerns have nothing to do with preserving my whiteness. In fact my ancestors were Irish and they didn't exactly get treated all that well in the not-so-distant past either. In any event I don't care if the majority of American's are white, yellow, Kinda orange, putrid green or turquoise. In fact my feelings about illegals themselves would be FAR different if they were all American partisans trying to get into this country to really BE American and to be a part of our history. Fact is most of them are only here for the money, from what I've seen of Mexico I'm not surprised. As usual people confuse morality and hard work for an actual desire to be an American. Until I see otherwise, I can't buy into that argument.

Finally, TheDoctor brought up what things might be like in a century. In effect that's what I'm talking about, not the here and now, but what will be. Long after most of us have gone the way of the Dodo. It might really be more of a problem of scale, no country in the recorded history of Earth has tried to absorb so many immigrants so quickly. And we're not even giving ourselves a break to catch up. Even a moratorium of just 30 years could go a long way to bringing people together, rather than giving them new reasons to define themselves separately from everyone else. Like another post I saw here, the hyphenated American thing is a real problem in my mind, until we can just accept that we're all one people there's very little hope for us down the line.

[Ummagumma]

Ok, your second post makes more sense. There was no focus I could identify in your opening post other than that the 'immigrants' were about to bring the downfall of 'your' society. It read like a standard Daily Mail article trying to spread fear amongst certain British people against the evils of Polish workers, for example.

Statements made against diversity seem to be against what you are now saying. Diversity - the melting pot of different cultures is and only can be a good thing. When you have (which from your second post seems more clear) isolated miniature communities that do not try to integrate - and enrich - the society they have moved to is not such a good thing. It only promotes a lack of understanding, which can promote hatred - which makes those communities even more closed.

I think, or hope, you are trying to say about these closed communities, and about the damage they can cause to themselves and to the wider community. I do not at all equate that to any statements concerning diversity - which is about openness and understanding, or about low - wage immigrant workforces. Several of my friends are first- or second-generation eastern Europeans, Asians and Africans and are more beneficial, socially and economically, to the country than many that can trace a long lineage here. I live next to some recently arrived Polish fellows, and I am rapidly becoming quite good friends with them. They work in the construction or agriculture industries for minimum wage doing very hard physical and semi-skilled work that many other people would not consider doing for those wages, yet the work still needs to be done. They are a benefit to the country.

I guess your opening post was too similar to what we see here written and preached by the 'racists in suits'. Cultural/Ethnic diversity is a blessing. Immigrant workforces are of great benefit to us all. To assist in this integration, it is good that many things are available in many languages to 'fast track' them to interact efficiently with us all. Closed-wall societies on the other hand will only lead to deepening prejudices, race/culture hate and possibly (or inevitably) to violence.
I took you as being a flag-waving, 'us and them' muppet, sat on the border with a shotgun so 'they' don't pollute 'our' way of life. I really hope I was wrong.

[MaximiIian]

Diversity vs national unity?

Why must the two be in opposition, or even different things?
Why can a nation not be united in its diversity, like the United States or Canada are?

[Kiljan Arslan]

Here Here Maxmilian!

[EmperorJulian]

The key thing to remember Ummagumma is that the people you mentioned, Poles, Eastern Europeans, Asians and others don't come in millions at a time. Most of them can't filter into isolated enclaves and stay there for generations. For the lone immigrant from Luxembourg he or she has little choice but to do their very best to integrate. When I'm talking about worshiping diversity I mean doing it AT THE EXPENSE OF any common ground. A lot of people take "differences" to heart and there are plenty of race baiters, politicians and businessmen who want nothing more than to keep Hispanic Immigrants isolated, poor and "off the grid" so to speak so they can be a political force for various scehemes. The problem is that a lot of people, that I've seen from my years in University have come to think this is normal, that no one should give up one Iota of their culture/language/society for their new homeland. That isolation is a good thing since it preserves ancestral ways and so forth.

I really couldn't care less about race, since race isn't going to be the problem of the future as I see it. The wars of the future, at least from where I sit will be cultural and social not between black white and brown. Just look at France, their situation with the Muslim Immigrant population is deplorable. Both sides have no interest in joining each other, and it seems that now there is no room for compromise either. This is what I fear, diversity policies that promote difference and preservation of native thoughts and values so far that there's no hope of reconciliation between the majority and the minority. In the US we're dealing with VAST numbers of people, from similar but still unique backgrounds that enter this country at such a rate that even if we were actively trying to assimilate them all it would be very very difficult. My point is that as things move forward, more and more people are actively RESISTING the idea of assimilation as the machination of the "evil white man." And so I think they're laying the foundations for civil war, long down the line mind you, but still a danger none the less.

And common sense tells me, that if we start having whole regions of the United States where English is not spoken, where life is essentially Latin American and which the loyalties of the people lie south of the border we WILL have problems. And just to be clear it matters not what they look like it matters what they do and how they behave. At some point diversity MUST give way to practicality. And in my mind the two most important things are loyalty to the US (no dual citizenship) and the English language (no multi-lingual ballots), if these two things can become commonplace amongst everyone living here we have a chance.

In any event, I remain worried about the future. Somehow we're going to have to get people to realize that some level of commonality is needed for the survival of a state, we can't just dismiss every attempt at reaching a consensus as racist, hateful or oppressive.

Note: Diversity can not equate to Unity unless everyone is on the same page in one sense or another. In my case I feel Language and Loyalty are the best hope, since especially in the US other options, like Race (obviously), Religion, commonality of political ideology at Etc. are not on the table. People in my mind can be diverse as they want SO LONG AS there are common threads running through society to bind people together. My fear is that those threads are being cast away, rejected as racially biased, and that the long term (100 year+ ) ramifications will be most distressing.

[mongrel]

"National Pride" as you call it does not pay the mortgage or the bills. The whole point of capitalism to to produce goods at a competative price using the best value materials and labour. Any interference with that is socialism. If people can't compete against hispanics in the fast-food industry, cleaning etc., perhaps they could set their sights a little higher.

I fail to see how anyone's lifestyle, language, religion and what have you, could be anyone's concern in a free country.

Anyway, I can remember a time when America refused to embrace the aspirations of a great number of its own people, let alone recent immigrants.

Here's three people who believed that equality before the law overrides any consideration of "National Unity"

[Daovonnaex]

Here's three people who believed that equality before the law overrides any consideration of "National Unity"

Black people had equality before the law in 1968 so what were they actually complaining about

[mongrel]

Black people had equality before the law in 1968 so what were they actually complaining about

I could ask Martin Luther King that question, but alas, he was murdered by some racist in...err.... 1968.:hmmm:



Good points EJ. I have to say that I am indifferent to diversity. At a personal level, as I have already mentioned, I see no need to enquire to deeply into the affairs of others as long as they pay their taxes and obey the law. On a professional level, at the workplace and as far as UK government policy goes I am sceptical, and on the odd occaision when policy holders ask me of their opinions, highly critical of some of the assumptions made.

Having taken an interest in employment matters for some years, and spending some of my time adjudicating workplace disputes, it seems to me that your average worker or manager does not require lessons in how other cultures live, they can surely see by themselves. Nor can it be said that by deeming that all viewpoints, lifestyle choices etc., are equally valid, acceptance will follow. When good jobs go bad, it is clear that employees demand similar things, fair and consistent treatment and due reward for their efforts. Thus celebrating Black History Month does nothing for an organisation whose managers refuse to promote black staff and wastes the time of disinterested parties. Cancelling Christmas Parties on grounds of cost, but justifying decisions on diversity grounds brasses off everybody whilst lettting the scrooges off the hook.

[Daovonnaex]

I could ask Martin Luther King that question, but alas, he was murdered by some racist in...err.... 1968.:hmmm:

By 1968 MLK was mostly campaigning for socialism which is probably why he got shot

Equality before the law was enshrined in 1964. Since then, the goal has been...creating a new racial spoils system where the formerly repressed reap the rewards of racism!

Perhaps the athletes were complaining about private white racism. That's fine, and it was rampant in 1968 (George Wallace anyone?).

[mongrel]

Although the US passed Civil Rights Act of 1964 banning discrimination in employment practices and public accommodations, the Voting Rights Act of 1965 that restored voting rights, the Immigration and Nationality Services Act of 1965 changing immigration policy, and the Civil Rights Act of 1968 banning discrimination in housing, I think it could be safe to say that it would have taken a while before these laws were fully accepted by elements of society who had, hitherto, seen nothing wrong with murdering black people, and those who sympathised with their plight, with impunity. Some people, perhaps frustrated that these new laws did not necessarily mean that black people were treated with any more respect, grew more radical, hence the Black Power Movement. Blacks communities, for example confronted the the Ku Klux Klan armed, and as a result the Klan stopped bothering their communities. Racists at the time had no qualms about the use of violence against blacks who would not "stay in their place," and so some felt that conventional civil rights strategies failed to secure sufficient concessions. Thats another story though.

There is a controversial view that "The Man" may have something to do with America's ills at the time.



Required Blaxploitation source

[EmperorJulian]

Couple of things, good responses all around. First mongrel I'm not looking at this as strictly capitalism/socialism. I was asked earlier if I would work in the fields for low wages, in reality I'm having such a hard time finding work I certainly would, any money is better than none at all and if it weren't for my health (which is sadly not up to par) I'd be doing construction or even be in the military. Of course my problems and my issues are my own and I've never spent a day of my life on government welfare, I understand that being 29 and essentially an academic with virtually no industry skills outside of my writing can present problems when it comes to securing employment. In a way there really are few things more enticing to a person looking to change domiciles then the prospect of better work at a better wage.

Lector V also makes an interesting point, I agree entirely with the cycles angle. My fear is today is what it has been since the beginning. That we are reckless, unprincipled and undisciplined in what we're doing regarding immigration. In my mind its sheer numbers, no nation on Earth has ever been asked to absorb so many foreign nationals so quickly. My hope, such as I have any is that my old Mexican History professor is right about the migrations and that they'll begin to die down in the next 10-20 years. He seemed to know his stuff and he could be right, I really hope that he is.

I think its interesting that mongrel brings up the black civil rights movement, ironically I think African Americans are in no way responsible for what's happening today immigration wise, nor do I think of them as anything other than fully American. They've been her as long as any of us and I do not and have not bought into any wall of separation between whites and blacks. Others of course do, I do not. At any rate I still believe so many people have a "pie in the sky" mentality about diversity that they're blind to reality. Every time I hear assimilation characterized as racism I'm very much concerned for the future. Diversity is not and can not breed unity. It can add to the vitality and robustness of a civilization but on the basic levels everyone must be on the same page. The more I think about it, the less I'm able to process the idea of being "Unified" to a Mongolian speaking Transsexual Ice Skating Scientologist based purely on the fact that he or she is different than I am.

At any rate I'm very curious to see how this all pans out, until things change I'm going to continue to lean towards the disillusion of the US into numerous factional states but likely not within the next 100 years.

[Kiki52]

I think that assimilation can have problems, even in America. One example I can think of are the Jews.

The Jews when they come here, they try very very hard to stay as their own people with their distinct culture and religion and race. I've heard many Jews say that if a Jewish person is assimilated to another culture, that is thousands of times deadlier to the Jewish race's existence that Adolf Hitler ever was. Some Jews have even said that assimilation to any degree of their people is tantamount to genocide. So I can understand why people say that assimilation, even to a culture like the old United States (white Anglo-Saxon Christian culture) can make many people of different cultures like Jews, Hispanics, Native Americans etc very strongly against it. I know that Chinese communities, th only reason why there is a place called Chinatown in many big cities in the US is because they want to keep themselves from assimilating with the other people. People find more personal power with their own culture race. Some Chinese are sad when they see a Chinese-American girl grow up with American values and become what they believe as a rude American.

There was this one Eastern European girl on the bus with me when I was in college, and she was on the phone with her friend crying because she said she didn't want to be known as American, but as her own country from Eastern Europe. I don't know why she was crying, but she was in an American university but she was *not* happy to be known as American or be assimilated into it.

[Bokks]

I think that assimilation can have problems, even in America. One example I can think of are the Jews.

Religions tend to keep to themselves. The Mormons, for example, do actively seek new converts, but the oldest of the families refuse anything but pure endogomous marriage between other "original" families. As a resultthere seems to be a clearly mormon race emerging, blonde haired blue eyed from the west and brunette, dark eyed from the east.
It's actually a fascinating, sociological/biological study.

I know that Chinese communities, th only reason why there is a place called Chinatown in many big cities in the US is because they want to keep themselves from assimilating with the other people.

Chinatowns originally emerged because at the turn of the century most America was fiercefully anti-Chinese, they even had anti-ponytail laws passed in many West coast states due to the traditional hair styles worn by Chinese men. It's funny (in an ironic sort of way) since Chinese foods were largely popular in the same places, but the people were not. Due to this intense critisisms and sentaments, most Chinese immigrants stuck to themselves, only after the worst of the anti-Chinese feelings pass did the isolation continue due to a renewed racial pride, which is common in such sub-set societies.