New Campaign: Novgorod or Kievan Rus?

[Landwalker]

Now that I'm properly filled with turkey and have emerged from my post-Thanksgiving hibernation, I'm able to contemplate my upcoming endeavor in Stainless Steel, complete with the latest of Chalupaku's full-map mini-mod.

My decision as to which faction to play essentially boils down to Novgorod or the Kievan Rus. I've decided to turn to the SS community to see what input they have on the matter, but I've also attempted to compile a list of comparative points and my own comments on the matter as a way to talking out this stage of the process.*

Starting Position:
Novgorod takes it here, without a question. They can grab Ryazan, Smolensk, and the Baltic region of their choice (Riga, Pskov, or Lyndanisse) right off the bat with hardly any real opposition. As far as I can tell, the prime targets for Kiev are further afield and less appetizing--Caffa, maybe Iasi. Chernigov is the only real "treat", and it has the largest garrison in the immediate region.

The cities of Kiev and Novgorod themselves are fairly comparable, with Novgorod, I think, having the slight advantage, simply because it starts out as a Minor City instead of a Large Town, despite lacking the requisite population.

Aside from those starting capitals, Kiev is looking at Zhytomyr (nothing of note there) and Rostov (hardly a prize). Novgorod's possessions aren't exceptionally enviable either, but they are at least more numerous and, with a little development, more profitable.

True, Novgorod does not begin with a castle (or even a motte and bailey), but capturing Smolensk is a cake-walk, and then they instantly have the best initially-rebel castle settlement in the region. The lack of an initial castle for Novgorod is also less problematic because of the early rosters, below.

As far as neighbors, Novgorod is looking at, for all practical purposes, Kiev, Lithuania, and Poland. Lithuania is the biggest problem here, because they grab Ducal Axemen and Ducal Spearmen pretty early on, and Russian Militia absolutely cannot stand up to them. However, Novgorod can definitely outnumber those more advanced units with cheap militia, hold a line, and make intelligent use of General's Bodyguards to even the playing field.

Kiev, on the other hand, has Novgorod, the Byzantine Empire, Turkey, Hungary, Poland, and Lithuania. Youch. To top it off, the Byzantines and Turks are likely to be much more advanced than Kiev, and if the Rus push north they meet the same problems with Lithuania that Novgorod has.

Winner: Novgorod by a moderate margin.

Early Game Unit Roster
I'm not sure which way to go on this, because neither of them are any good. Both factions are going to spend a lot of turns early in the game using nothing but city-built spear and archer militia, anchored by mercenaries. Kiev has a castle, certainly, but it begins play unable to produce anything, and even after you do build all the military buildings, you're looking at:

Kiev: Peasants; Slavic Javelinmen; Peasant Archers; Kazaks.
Novgorod: Peasants; Woodsmen; Peasant Archers; Kazaks.

Novgorod's capture of Smolensk also means it has the first settlement to reach (stone) Castle quality, which means it can hit the third-tier infantry and second-tier cavalry first. Given how long it takes Rostov and Iasi to do the same, this puts Kiev at a huge disadvantage in this stage of the game. And then, of course, there are the units themselves:

Kiev: Varangian Spearmen; Heavy Horse Archers.
Novgorod: Spearmen; Dismounted Druzhina; Boyar Sons.

I don't have the exact stats in front of me, so I can't compare Varangian Spearmen against Novgorodrian Spearmen in that regard. However, assuming they are of comparable ability, Novgorod still gets the win because it gets a serviceable heavy infantry unit (Dismounted Druzhina) long, long before Kiev ever does. Comparing Heavy Horse Archers and Boyar Sons, I would give the edge of the Boyars--their javelins are shorter ranged, but more powerful, meaning they're much more useful against those armored Lithuanians, and Boyar Sons are also much better in melee.

Winner: Novgorod by a moderate margin.

Late Game Roster

So you've slogged through the early stages, and now you have the necessary infrastructure to start churning out the good stuff. Let's see what we're looking at. (N.B. Since I haven't made it this far in either of my preliminary campaigns, and I'm not at my school computer, I'm not going to remember a lot of stuff here. Just the highlights.)

Kiev: Palace Guard (Spearmen), Varangian Archers, Mounted Cossack Gunners.

Novgorod: Berdiche Axemen, Dvor Cavalry, Dvor Archers.

Evaluation: This is a tough one to call. In the late game, most archers that aren't longbowmen are weak against the increasingly armored units. In that regard, Kiev has a huge, huge advantage here: The Cossack Gunners could be one of the best late-game ranged cavalry units out there. They're probably weaker in melee than Dvor Cavalry, but they're going to be much stronger at range against the elite of your enemies. If I remember correctly, Dvor Archers beat out Varangian Archers by virtue of melee capability and better armor (making them less vulnerable to enemy archers), but this is somewhat negated by the fact that your archers probably shouldn't be in melee in the first place (except when defending sieges--Dismounted Dvor are an outstanding siege defense unit, but how often does that really come up?). However, the Kievan Palace Guard really brings the win home for Kiev: Neither faction gets pikemen down the road, and Novgorod is going to be using those Spearmen for the whole game. The Palace Guard gives Kiev a stronger and tougher spear option in the late game to supplement or replace Varangian Spearmen. It's not great, because it doesn't have pikes, but it's a lot better than running around with mid-tier spearmen.

Win: Kiev by a mile.

Unfortunately, I can't evaluate late-game melee cavalry, because I don't remember any of Kiev's. I know Novgorod has the Tsar's Guard (which is exceptional), but in lieu of anything to compare it to, I must omit it.

As an aside, if I remember correctly, Novgorod may have access to the Serpentine, while Kiev does not. This definitely gives Novgorod the edge in anti-personnel artillery.

Conclusion
So, there are my views on the matter. I'm interested to hear what the rest of the community has to say, both about my evaluations and about their own, as well as filling in the gaps I might have missed. The bottom line from where I'm sitting: Novgorod dominates the early game, but if Kiev can survive to the top tier, it can run all over the east with its Mounted Cossack Gunners and still be able to hold against enemy cavalry.

Cheers.


*I'm not actually at my school computer until Monday, so there may be "blanks" or inaccuracies in some of my statements. For that, I apologize.

[Inhuman One]

Well I think that the Tsar guard are a very usefull unit. Kiev does not have such heavy cavalry so this can give Novgorod a good edge in a cavalry melee.

The mounted cossack gunners are good yes, but not very armored thus vurnerable to pretty much any attack. Dvor cavalry archers and Boyar sons both have good armor, the Dvor can harass enemies from a distance, pick on the lesser armored enemies while the Boyar Sons can get closer to take out more armored foes with their spears, to charge in a melee when they are out of spears.

The Kiev palace guard are good though, and Novgorod has indeed not a comparable spear unit. But, the Tsar guard can take on most enemy cavalry before they attack your infantry.

I am not sure about one rather important thing though, the range of Dvor horse archers, dismounted dvor and mounted cossack gunners.

If the mounted cossack gunners have a shorter range than the mounted Dvor archers, the Dvor would win in a fight between these two units.

[Iscariott]

The real Gem of the Dvor is the dual nature of them. Being able to pepper from range, and still being effective melee cav(not charge cav though).

For inhuman: range of dvor cav 170 in ss, range of cossack gunners 160

[Inhuman One]

alright, Dvor are superiour then, better armor, better range and available before gunpowder is discovered.

[Landwalker]

Dvor cavalry can probably beat Cossack Gunners in a straight up match, but what about against other enemies? How many lightly-armored opponents are you going to be running up against by the time Dvor Cavalry are available? They're probably good for going after enemy archers, but I can't think of a whole heck of a lot else, and Boyar Sons (if I remember correctly) only have a ranged attack of 7, to the Cossack Gunners' 13.

Since I can't check the units myself from here away from school, what is the Heavy Cavalry lineup for Kiev?

The problem I've encountered with horse archers (like Dvor) is that it takes forever to kill armored enemies. I was in one battle against three units of Lithuanian Ducal units (axemen and spearmen in some combination) with a general, two heavy horse archers, and a Kazaks unit. Since I obviously didn't need to engage in melee until I was out of ammo, that's exactly what I did. By the time all three horse archer units had exhausted their ammo, they had whittled down slightly more than half of the opponents. After something like ten minutes of firing arrows into their fronts, backs, and sides. That's the main thing I'm worried about in a late game with Novgorod--going up against heavily-armored Western Europe with nothing harder-hitting than Boyar Sons in the ranged cavalry department. That, and the problem of late-game spear units, especially when the Mongols come to town... Any thoughts? I must admit I'm already more partial to the color scheme of Novgorod...

One last question, since I can't check myself. What are the heavy infantry options (non-spear) for the two factions? I know one of them has a sword-armed choice and an axe-armed choice (Novgorod?) and one of them has... something else? Maybe just axe-armed, or just sword-armed? I can't remember, but I do feel like I need a viable, albeit not overwhelming, heavy infantry roster.

Cheers.

[Iscariott]

Dvor cavalry can probably beat Cossack Gunners in a straight up match, but what about against other enemies? How many lightly-armored opponents are you going to be running up against by the time Dvor Cavalry are available? They're probably good for going after enemy archers, but I can't think of a whole heck of a lot else, and Boyar Sons (if I remember correctly) only have a ranged attack of 7, to the Cossack Gunners' 13.

Since I can't check the units myself from here away from school, what is the Heavy Cavalry lineup for Kiev?

The problem I've encountered with horse archers (like Dvor) is that it takes forever to kill armored enemies. I was in one battle against three units of Lithuanian Ducal units (axemen and spearmen in some combination) with a general, two heavy horse archers, and a Kazaks unit. Since I obviously didn't need to engage in melee until I was out of ammo, that's exactly what I did. By the time all three horse archer units had exhausted their ammo, they had whittled down slightly more than half of the opponents. After something like ten minutes of firing arrows into their fronts, backs, and sides. That's the main thing I'm worried about in a late game with Novgorod--going up against heavily-armored Western Europe with nothing harder-hitting than Boyar Sons in the ranged cavalry department. That, and the problem of late-game spear units, especially when the Mongols come to town... Any thoughts? I must admit I'm already more partial to the color scheme of Novgorod...

One last question, since I can't check myself. What are the heavy infantry options (non-spear) for the two factions? I know one of them has a sword-armed choice and an axe-armed choice (Novgorod?) and one of them has... something else? Maybe just axe-armed, or just sword-armed? I can't remember, but I do feel like I need a viable, albeit not overwhelming, heavy infantry roster.

Cheers.

Late in the game horse archers(archers of all kinds really) do lose a lot of their teeth. But sustained fire even if it doesnt cause lots of kills does cause a unit a good bit of disorganization. I like to load up one flank with my archer cav, and use them to thin one or two units on the flank to setup a heavy cav charge. Archer units usually run to the rear because of this, and as the enemy reacts to kill your knights you can usually charge say your dvor's in to slaughter the archer core.


But for raw kill power, yeah horse archers do take a dive vs well armored western armys. The mongols really arent that scary by the time they show up.

[the42up]

the late game prowess of kievan rus really gives it an edge over novgorod. the combination of stellar infantry coupled cossack gunners/mounter gunners is one hell of a 1-2 punch. Their archers are not half bad either.

A pity that they are a bit weak on the calvary side. Not terribly bad, but they probably wont win any battles against opposing late game heavy cav

[republic_bohemia]

I hate Gunpowder,I think it kills the game kind of.Medieval should be fought Medieval warfare not late medieval.

[Gazi Husrev-Beg]

I hate Gunpowder,I think it kills the game kind of.Medieval should be fought Medieval warfare not late medieval.

Well it was partially one of reasons that killed medieval

[Point Blank]

Once the Dvor Cav have exhausted their ammo, they are still highly effective melee units, they should be able to finish off their opponents with 1 or 2 charges.

[Inhuman One]

Well why should the Dvor archers take on heavily armored enemies? its not their role. You wouldnt let your swordsmen charge cavalry head on either right?

Novgorod has crossbows, arquebusiers, cossack gunners, boyar sons and cannons to take out heavily armored units from a distance.

A good melee usually works too, and I believe that Novgorod is better with infantry thats not carrying spears. They dont have sword infantry though, they all have axes or spears. The dismounted druzina of Kiev has swords, but the ones from Novgorod has axes. With all the axe wielding infantry, heavily armored enemy infantry shouldnt be that much of a problem, the Berdiche axemen are stronger than the axe infantry of Kiev I believe.

When you assault a castle or city, ranged units are usually not very usefull and cavalry has limited uses here as well. Its good to have good infantry here to take the walls.

[Landwalker]

A good point about the assaults, but I don't really do a lot of assaulting, to be honest. Admittedly, I don't do a lot of field battles, either. Most of my battles are either sallies (both ways) or siege defenses (when the AI assaults me). The rest of the time I spend waiting out sieges, for the most part.

And of course, Dvor shouldn't be taking on heavily armored enemies in the first place, but my point is that Novgorod doesn't have that extra option available to it. Cossack Musketeers (and, really, all gunpowder infantry) is nice, but has the problem of being unable to deploy behind your other units due to the firing trajectory--Mounted Cossack Gunners are decent-ranged, powerful, and mobile enough where that doesn't become a problem.

I've always had trouble using armies with gunpowder infantry because of their firing trajectory and, thus, their limited deployment options. I think I've finally come up with something that might work, but I'm always open to suggestions. After all, Cossack Musketeers are arguably the best gunpowder infantry in the game (competing with Janissary Musketeers for that honor), and I would love to be able to make better use of them.

Cheers.

[Inhuman One]

Would be nice if they also included the beginning instead of ignoring half the medieval ages.

[republic_bohemia]

Would be nice if they also included the beginning instead of ignoring half the medieval ages.

Yes Inhuman One very good statement very true and very clever if they did include it in the expansion.Maybe a mod will do it. :hmmm:

[Landwalker]

Yes Inhuman One very good statement very true and very clever if they did include it in the expansion.Maybe a mod will do it. :hmmm:

Don't count on it. Most mods (at least, most mods of quality) are primarily concerned with one of three things: The geographical setting (particularly the East), the "realism" of the setting (whether in pursuit of realism or in pursuit of pure fantasy), and the Roman Republican period. The "Dark Ages" / the Early Middle Ages are almost guaranteed to never have proper justice done them.

Which is a damn shame, as it results in missing out on a lot. I had personally hoped that the next TW game would be the Dark Ages, not colonialism, but it looks like I'm out of luck yet again in hoping for a game involving the times of Theoderic the Great, Justinian, the rise of Islam (and its associated conquests and the collapse of Persia), Charlemagne, the Anglo-Saxon unification of England, the Ottonians, and on, and on, and on...

Cheers.

[Landwalker]

Well, now that I'm back at my dorm, I've had the opportunity to download Chalupaku's latest "Full Map" mod, and I've gotten started on my campaign. The rest of you probably don't care, but in the interest of closure, I'll give the final verdict and run through the logic behind it.

The Verdict: Kievan Rus

Starting Position
The latest Chalupaku mod really tipped the balance to Kiev, here. The addition of Pereyaslav gives the Rus a stone castle to start the game, which more than eliminates Novgorod's advantage of being able to capture Smolensk in the first few turns. It also means the Rus can recruit Heavy Horse Archers right from the start, and with a little development, it can start producing Varangian Spearmen pretty early on. Owning an additional settlement also gives the Rus an income boost that greatly improves their initial economy.

Ultimately, the Rus have more options at the start of the game. With Pereyaslav, they can convert Rostov to a town if so desired. They can try to grab the territories along the Polish/Hungarian border, or they can set out for Sarkel (or both). Starting out with a castle gives them access to decent non-militia earlier than Novgorod. All is good.

Early Game Roster

Now that I've finally been able to poke around Custom Battle and compare actual stats, I'm impressed with Kiev. Novgorodrian Spearmen, at 5/11/3, are better than Sergeant Spearmen (5/8/3), but not quite up to snuff with Armored Sergeants (5/13/3). Varangian Spearmen, however, are just as good as Armored Sergeants.

Of course, Novgorod probably has the edge here anyway, because they get Dismounted Druzhina earlier (at a Level 3 instead of Level 4 castle barracks), and I think they get Mounted Boyar Sons earlier as well, versus Kiev putting off the Boyars for one level of Stables in favor of Heavy Horse Archers. This difference is largely an issue of preference, but Novgorod's earlier availability of heavy infantry is nice.

Late/Full Game Roster

Here it's got to go to Kiev, hands down. Kievan Palace Guard, at 7/18/4, are the best non-pike spearmen outside of Italy (and might be the best outside of the Papal Guard), and make Kiev much more capable of handling enemy melee cavalry later in the game. Scandinavian Guard (7/12/5) absolutely shames Novgorod's two-handed unit, the Berdiche Axemen (5/7/5), and makes the pitiful Kievan Berdiche Militia less of a shortcoming (since it becomes somewhat irrelevant).

As a matter of personal preference, I like Kiev's Dismounted Druzhina better than Novgorod's. Both of the Shield-and-Weapon heavy infantry options for Novgorod wield axes, and the axe-toting Dismounted Druzhina is really just a poorer version of the Dismounted Boyar Sons (4/17/3 vs. 3/15/3). Kiev's Dis. Druzhina, on the other hand, swings a sword, and since Boyar Sons hold the position of "anti-armor infantry" anyway, I find this much more useful, especially given the nice stats (6/17/4). Although not as good as Dismounted Feudal Knights, this gives Kiev two heavy infantry units that can play different roles--one against heavily-armored opponents, one against lightly-armored opponents--instead of Novgorod's quickly-obsolete option.

Novgorod's Dvor and Dismounted Dvor are very good options, easily beating out Varangian Archers (4,5/11/3 vs. 2,5/14/3). While the Varangians are the better melee archers, the Dvor's superior armor gives them the edge here. Heavy Horse Archers clearly fall before Dvor Cavalry, as well. However, Kiev's Cossack Gunners, I believe, make Kiev much more versatile in this department. The Cossack Gunners and Dvor Cavalry play very different roles, of course, but I think the role of Dvor can be modestly well done by Boyar Sons--namely, the role of killing enemy missile infantry and lightly-armed cavalry. The Novgorodrians lack a missile cavalry option for taking on heavily-armored melee infantry (or, for that matter, heavy cavalry), whereas the Rus have the Cossack Gunners. As long as the player keeps them away from enemy archers, this is a potent force, as it eliminates the shortcomings (especially in terms of trajectory, but also in terms of vulnerability) of gunpowder infantry.

Novgorod wins the heavy cavalry game, with Tsar's Guard (5/22/8) spanking the Kievan Nobles (6/15/9). Although the two are equally good on the charge, Tsar's Guard stand up better in prolonged melee. So, if that's your style, they're the better option, whereas the Kievan Nobles are more of a charge, retreat, rinse, repeat cavalry.

Finally, Kiev gets Serpentines, which isn't a huge deal, but they're a nice, less-expensive anti-personnel artillery option to replace the enormous basilisk. Just a little more versatility, really.

Conclusion

Kiev rocks Novgorod in the infantry department, both heavy infantry and spear infantry. It's a push on missile cavalry, which is largely left up to style, and Novgorod edges out Kiev in heavy cavalry. However, Kiev has the superior starting position thanks to Pereyaslav, and this ends up being a big deal early in the game, when Kiev can field a reasonably durable non-militia unit that really has all the right advantages against the lightly-armored militia units common early on. Later in the game, I feel like Kiev is better able to counter the late-game units of other factions, both cavalry (thanks to the Palace Guard) and infantry (thanks to Cossack Gunners). Ultimately, the nod here has to go to Kiev.

So, there you have it. Feel free to point out why I'm a fool.

Cheers.

[Inhuman One]

Novgorod has nicer skins

[Landwalker]

Incidentally, that was a considerable contributing factor. I like the subdued Christmas-colors on a lot of Novgorod units more than the bright yellow and blue of Kiev. I also like Novgorod's use of the Orthodox cross as opposed to the Valkyrie-helm or pitchfork or whatever Kiev's factional icon is.

I've also hit upon a critical problem that I failed to consider in my evaluation. I picked Kiev over Novgorod, despite Novgorod's stronger early game. About 20 turns in my campaign, I realized the problem: Kiev has to deal with Novgorod during the early game. Novgorod also has the advantage of really only having one "front" at which it can come into conflict with enemies, whereas after 40 turns as Kiev I'm trying to stave off armies both in the north (against Novgorod) and the south (against Hungary at Iasi). Of course, the war with Novgorod is my fault: Despite a marriage alliance, they beat me to Chernigov, and then left both that city and Smolensk poorly garrisoned. I couldn't pass up the opportunity to grab them, and Novgorod has been at my throat ever since.

Would that the AI would eventually just give up and agree to a peace agreement. I'm even offering to pay indemnities, but neither Hungary (which I never attacked in the first place) nor Novgorod (which, okay, I screwed them over) are biting. All I want is some peace and quiet for 15 turns!

Cheers.

[y2day]

Kievan Rus

I like blue