How can I avoid the battle dread traits?

**tree_of_liberty** · November 21, 2007, 06:22 PM

In the early and mid-game, I use my general's bodyguard units as heavy cavalry. I charge the enemy's rear, attack archers/siege equipment, and generally cause a ruckus.

I can see where traits like "brave" or "fierce in battle" would arise.

However, even when I deliberately avoid chasing down fleeing units, my general still accumulates that annoying "winning first" line of traits. This really interferes with building chivalry in my generals.

Is there any way to avoid that while still using the general in combat?

Apologies if this has been answered before, but after some searching all I found was this identical, unanswered thread: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...=winning+first

**Faris ad Din** · November 21, 2007, 06:58 PM

I'll post some actual snippets from the triggers section from descr_character_trait.txt which governs the conditions under which generals earn traits later, but right off the hat, one condition (which I don't particularly like myself) that may give your generals "BattleDread" (appears as "Winning First" at the first level) is engaging in battles with overwhelming odds, like, over 1.5:1 or 2:1. Chivalry is easier earned when the battle calculator deems the odds are against your general... not sure if this helps.

**FuriousSpurius** · November 22, 2007, 02:05 AM

The best ways to build chivalry:
Release prisoners when there are more than 80.
Occupy towns.
Govern towns with tax rate set at "low"
Go on Crusade.

I get Winning First a lot, but usually it's way overpowered by the other things I have that are building chivalry. Most of my generals get the title of the Honorable or the Chivalrous from governing towns. In battle, like Faris ad Din above me says, don't fight battles where you're outnumbering them by ridiculous margins.

**pwijnands** · November 22, 2007, 02:15 AM

Fight opposing religions to get the chivalrous battle trait. After that it's hard to get dread battle traits.

**Immaculate** · November 22, 2007, 06:27 AM

I had the same problem (and also posted it but your seach didn't bring it up i guess).

Here is the solution i came up with.

Make sure that when your general doesn't have either winning first or fair figther line of traits, that he is fighting defensively when outnumbered (and then don't run down the enemy). As far as my play-testing has determined, you get an advantage to gain chivalry if you are on the defensive and you get an advantage if you are outnumbered.
If a rebel settlment has mostly militia units or archers, then lay seige with only your general. They'll probably sally (if their numbers are good enough). Afterwards, just cycle-charge them as best you can and rout their forces. If they are made up of cavalry and spear combinations this obviously won't work, but a lone general's unit, properly micromanaged, should be able to take down 4-6 unit cards of regular milita, any type of basic missile unit and even a few spear (provided these don't make up the bulk of the enemy forces).
Again, don't run down fleeing units.

If you fight offensively and have the advantage of numbers, you can kiss chivlary goodbye.

Once you get fair-figther type traits, it doesn't matter what sort of battles you fight, you will never lose the battle chivalry line of traits.

Accept adopted sons with nobble in battle or fair fighter and not winning first also so that you don't have to worry about it with new, adopted, family members.

**vonKrysiak** · November 22, 2007, 06:45 AM

Definitely dont kill prisoners and dont raze cities, each time you release them or just occupy a city you get a chance for a skill up. And at least in vanilla there was a trigger that would increase your standing with factions (not sure about dlv) so for example for releasing german prisoners you would get slight standing incease with christian nations...

**Faris ad Din** · November 22, 2007, 10:22 AM

Snippets from export_descr_character_trait.txt. Highlighting Dread traits in red and Chivalry traits in blue.

;------------------------------------------
Trigger Battle_Berserker_Actions
WhenToTest PostBattle
Condition GeneralHPLostRatioinBattle > 0.3
and GeneralNumKillsInBattle > 6
and Trait Berserker >= 1
and Trait BattleChivalry < 1
Affects Berserker 1 Chance 33
;------------------------------------------
Trigger Battle_Earning_Berserker
WhenToTest PostBattle
Condition GeneralHPLostRatioinBattle > 0.3
and GeneralNumKillsInBattle > 10
and Trait Berserker < 1
and Trait BattleChivalry < 1
Affects Berserker 1 Chance 100
;------------------------------------------
Trigger Battle_Losing_Berserker
WhenToTest PostBattle
Condition not GeneralFoughtInCombat
and Trait Berserker > 0
Affects Berserker -1 Chance 33
;------------------------------------------
Trigger battle3_Dread_fighting
WhenToTest PostBattle
Condition GeneralNumKillsInBattle > 8
and not Trait BattleChivalry > 0
Affects BattleDread 1 Chance 50
Affects Bloodthirsty 1 Chance 10
;------------------------------------------
Trigger battle3_Chivalry_fighting
WhenToTest PostBattle
Condition GeneralNumKillsInBattle > 8
and not Trait BattleDread > 0
Affects BattleChivalry 1 Chance 50
;------------------------------------------
Trigger battle3Chivalry1_defensivewin
WhenToTest PostBattle
Condition not WasAttacker
and IsGeneral
and BattleOdds < 0.8
and GeneralFoughtInCombat
and not Trait BattleDread > 0
Affects BattleChivalry 1 Chance 100
;------------------------------------------
Trigger battle3Chivalry_hardoddswin
WhenToTest PostBattle
Condition IsGeneral
and WonBattle
and BattleOdds <= 0.5
and not Trait BattleDread > 0
and GeneralFoughtInCombat
Affects BattleChivalry 1 Chance 66
;------------------------------------------
Trigger battle3Chivalry_religioncatholic
WhenToTest GeneralAssaultsGeneral
Condition CharacterReligion catholic
and TargetReligion islam
and not Trait BattleDread > 0
Affects BattleChivalry 1 Chance 33
;------------------------------------------
Trigger battle3Chivalry_religionorthodox
WhenToTest GeneralAssaultsGeneral
Condition CharacterReligion orthodox
and TargetReligion islam
and not Trait BattleDread > 0
Affects BattleChivalry 1 Chance 33
;------------------------------------------
Trigger battle3Chivalry_religionislam
WhenToTest GeneralAssaultsGeneral
Condition CharacterReligion islam
and TargetReligion catholic
and not Trait BattleDread > 0
Affects BattleChivalry 1 Chance 66
;------------------------------------------
Trigger battle3Chivalry1_notchaserouters
WhenToTest PostBattle
Condition WonBattle
and BattleSuccess >= average
and PercentageEnemyKilled < 20
and IsGeneral
and BattleOdds < 0.95
and not Trait BattleDread > 0
Affects BattleChivalry 1 Chance 33
;------------------------------------------
Trigger battle3Chivalry_Dread_Not_fighting
WhenToTest PostBattle
Condition not WonBattle
and not GeneralFoughtInCombat
and PercentageEnemyKilled < 10
Affects BattleChivalry -1 Chance 100
Affects BattleDread -1 Chance 100
;------------------------------------------
Trigger battle3Chivalry_Dread_Routing
WhenToTest PostBattle
Condition Routs
and PercentageEnemyKilled < 33
and GeneralNumKillsInBattle < 8
Affects BattleChivalry -2 Chance 100
Affects BattleDread -2 Chance 100
;------------------------------------------
Trigger battle3Chivalry_Dread_Routing2
WhenToTest PostBattle
Condition Routs
and PercentageEnemyKilled >= 33
and PercentageEnemyKilled <= 66
and GeneralNumKillsInBattle < 8
and BattleOdds > 0.75
Affects BattleChivalry -1 Chance 100
Affects BattleDread -1 Chance 100
;------------------------------------------
Trigger battle3Dread_PickingOnWeak
WhenToTest PostBattle
Condition WasAttacker
and WonBattle
and BattleOdds > 1.5
and PercentageEnemyKilled > 50
and not Trait BattleChivalry > 0
Affects BattleDread 1 Chance 100
;------------------------------------------
Trigger battle3Dread_TotalAnnihilation
WhenToTest PostBattle
Condition WonBattle
and BattleSuccess >= crushing
and PercentageEnemyKilled > 70
and GeneralFoughtInCombat
and IsGeneral
and BattleOdds < 0.95
and not Trait BattleChivalry > 0
Affects BattleDread 2 Chance 100
;------------------------------------------
Trigger battle3Dread_Let_Them_Go
WhenToTest PostBattle
Condition IsGeneral
and WonBattle
and BattleSuccess >= average
and PercentageEnemyKilled < 20
and not GeneralFoughtInCombat
and IsGeneral
and BattleOdds < 0.95
and not Trait BattleChivalry > 0
Affects BattleDread -1 Chance 100
;------------------------------------------
Trigger dads_chivalrylegacy
WhenToTest CharacterComesOfAge
Condition FatherAttribute Chivalry >= 4
Affects ChivalryLegacy 1 Chance 100
;------------------------------------------
Trigger dads_chivalrylegacy2
WhenToTest CharacterComesOfAge
Condition FatherAttribute Chivalry >= 7
Affects ChivalryLegacy 1 Chance 100
;------------------------------------------
Trigger dads_dreadlegacy
WhenToTest CharacterComesOfAge
Condition FatherAttribute Chivalry <= -4
Affects DreadLegacy 1 Chance 100
;------------------------------------------
Trigger dads_dreadlegacy2
WhenToTest CharacterComesOfAge
Condition FatherAttribute Chivalry <= -7
Affects DreadLegacy 1 Chance 100
;------------------------------------------
Trigger agents5
WhenToTest LeaderOrderedSpyingMission
Condition MissionSucceeded
Affects SpyMaster 1 Chance 100
Affects DeceiverVirtue 1 Chance 2
Affects StrategyDread 1 Chance 5
;------------------------------------------
Trigger agents8
WhenToTest LeaderOrderedAssassination
Condition MissionSucceeded
Affects AssassinMaster 1 Chance 100
Affects DeceiverVirtue 1 Chance 5
Affects StrategyDread 1 Chance 50
;------------------------------------------
Trigger agents8a
WhenToTest LeaderOrderedAssassination
Condition not MissionSucceeded
Affects AssassinMaster 1 Chance 10
Affects DeceiverVirtue 1 Chance 10
Affects StrategyDread 1 Chance 25
;------------------------------------------
Trigger agents20
WhenToTest LeaderOrderedBribery

Affects PoliticsSkill 5 Chance 50
Affects DeceiverVirtue 1 Chance 10
Affects StrategyDread 1 Chance 25
;------------------------------------------
Trigger governing10
WhenToTest GovernorAgentCreated
Condition AgentType = assassin
Affects StrategyDread 1 Chance 100
;------------------------------------------
Trigger governing11
WhenToTest GovernorAgentCreated
Condition AgentType = spy
Affects StrategyDread 1 Chance 33
;------------------------------------------
Trigger governing21
WhenToTest GovernorBuildingDestroyed
Condition Treasury > 10000
and Trait StrategyChivalry < 1
Affects Unjust 1 Chance 20
;------------------------------------------
Trigger building_religion_catholic
WhenToTest GovernorBuildingCompleted
Condition SettlementBuildingFinished >= small_church
Affects ReligiousActivity 1 Chance 100
Affects StrategyChivalry 1 Chance 100
Affects Upright 1 Chance 10
Affects GoodBuilder 1 Chance 25
;------------------------------------------
Trigger building_religion_orthodox
WhenToTest GovernorBuildingCompleted
Condition SettlementBuildingFinished >= small_church_o
Affects ReligiousActivity 1 Chance 100
Affects StrategyChivalry 1 Chance 100
Affects Upright 1 Chance 10
Affects GoodBuilder 1 Chance 25
;------------------------------------------
Trigger building_religion_islam
WhenToTest GovernorBuildingCompleted
Condition SettlementBuildingFinished >= small_masjid
Affects ReligiousActivity 1 Chance 100
Affects StrategyChivalry 1 Chance 100
Affects Upright 1 Chance 10
Affects GoodBuilder 1 Chance 25
;------------------------------------------
Trigger building_tourney
WhenToTest GovernorBuildingCompleted
Condition SettlementBuildingFinished >= jousting_lists
Affects StrategyChivalry 1 Chance 100
Affects NonAuthoritarian 1 Chance 5
;------------------------------------------
Trigger building_townhall
WhenToTest GovernorBuildingCompleted
Condition Trait StrategyDread < 1
and Trait StrategyChivalry < 1
and SettlementBuildingFinished >= town_hall
Affects Just 1 Chance 50
Affects GoodBuilder 1 Chance 25
Affects Authoritarian 1 Chance 7
;------------------------------------------
Trigger building_townhall_chivalrous
WhenToTest GovernorBuildingCompleted
Condition Trait StrategyChivalry >= 1
and SettlementBuildingFinished >= town_hall
Affects Just 1 Chance 100
Affects GoodBuilder 1 Chance 25
Affects Authoritarian 1 Chance 5
;------------------------------------------
Trigger building_townhall_dread
WhenToTest GovernorBuildingCompleted
Condition Trait StrategyDread >= 1
and SettlementBuildingFinished >= town_hall
Affects HarshJustice 1 Chance 100
Affects GoodBuilder 1 Chance 25
Affects Authoritarian 1 Chance 10
;------------------------------------------
Trigger extermination2
WhenToTest ExterminatePopulation

Affects Genocide 1 Chance 100
Affects Bloodthirsty 1 Chance 10
Affects StrategyDread 1 Chance 100
Affects HarshJustice 1 Chance 20
Affects Authoritarian 1 Chance 3
;------------------------------------------
Trigger extermination3
WhenToTest OccupySettlement

Affects StrategyChivalry 1 Chance 100
Affects NonAuthoritarian 1 Chance 3
;------------------------------------------
Trigger extermination4
WhenToTest OccupySettlement
Condition Trait StrategyChivalry > 0
Affects LenientJustice 1 Chance 20
Affects NonAuthoritarian 1 Chance 3
;------------------------------------------
Trigger prisoners_captor1
WhenToTest GeneralPrisonersRansomedCaptor
Condition RansomType release
and NumCapturedSoldiers > 80
Affects CaptorChivalry 1 Chance 100
;------------------------------------------
Trigger prisoners_captor2
WhenToTest GeneralPrisonersRansomedCaptor
Condition RansomType execute
and NumCapturedSoldiers > 80
Affects CaptorDread 1 Chance 100
;------------------------------------------
Trigger prisoners_payer1
WhenToTest GeneralPrisonersRansomedCaptive
Condition RansomType ransom
and NumCapturedSoldiers > 80
and RansomAmount > 1000
Affects RansomChivalry 1 Chance 100
;------------------------------------------
Trigger prisoners_payer2
WhenToTest GeneralPrisonersRansomedCaptive
Condition RansomType execute
and NumCapturedSoldiers > 80
and RansomAmount < 5000
Affects RansomDread 1 Chance 100
;------------------------------------------
Trigger crusades_1
WhenToTest GeneralJoinCrusade
Condition IsCrusade
and Trait CrusaderHistory < 1
Affects CrusaderHistory 2 Chance 100
Affects StrategyChivalry 1 Chance 100
;------------------------------------------
Trigger crusades_6
WhenToTest GeneralAbandonCrusade

Affects CrusaderHistory -3 Chance 100
Affects StrategyChivalry -2 Chance 100

Unfortunately right now I don't have time to elaborate further, I'll leave you to decipher it and discuss on your own and I'll post more explanation later.

.......

Now I have time to explain some of the triggers above that govern dread/chivalry traits. First off, many of the chivalry/dread triggers are enabled either when 1. a family member's overall chivalry/dread is positive or negative or when 2. a family already has a specific chivalry/dread related trait, like "BattleChivalry"/"BattleDread" (1. Fair_Fighter 2. Noble_in_Battle 3. Bastion_of_Chivalry 4. Champion_of_Honour 5. Saint_of_Battle / 1. Winning_First 2. Cruel_and_Cunning 3. Merciless_Mauler 4. Field_Tyrant 5. Warlord_of_Terror, respectively).

Take for instance, triggers "battle3_Chivalry_fighting" and "battle3_Dread_fighting". EITHER of them are triggered when your general engages in combat and make at least 8 kills, and they grant BattleChivalry or BattleDread respectively. However, the "Chivalry fighting" will not trigger if your general already picked up at least 1 rank of BattleDread, and "Dread fighting" will not trigger if your general already picked up at least 1 rank of BattleChivalry. It could swing in either way with odds of 50% for either. This is pretty contradictory in my opinion because what it looks like is that the same general can be deemed either as Bloodthirsty and a cruel, cold winner, or a valiant, fearless self-sacrificing hero for making the same number of kills in battle, depending only on past reputation. "Hey, there's Francois, he's a devout man who crusades. He personally killed seventeen Germans but hey, that can't be a bad thing? "Look, there's Lorenzo, he sacks settlements, taxes his subjects to their stockings and is heard to assassinate clerics who cross him. He slew seventeen Venetians in cold blood and I am SO sure that he enjoyed the last look in their eyes."

Anyways one of the best ways to avoid getting BattleDread, is to avoid getting it, and trying to get BattleChivalry first thing. That way you avoid making a general eligible for more BattleDread triggers, and also happen to disable existing ones (those meant for generals with an empty slate) as well ("Never let it be said that this man will resort to cheap tactics to win a battle, it is beneath him now.") So try to pick up BattleChivalry first thing, by leaving extra troops behind, and win some victories with odds against your general. Fight Muslims if you're Catholic or Orthodox, or Catholics if you're Muslim. Barring that, you COULD cheat a bit and use the ~ (shift ` in upper left of keyboard) to bring up the console and type:
give_charactertrait "general's name_here" "BattleDread" -1
The "-1" will completely remove any trait no matter what level it is. I personally use this in situations where I feel the AI is being ridiculously unfair in blackening the reputation of my family members, penalizing them for fighting with too many troops against too few. No general in history was REVILED simply for fighting with too many troops against too few, they were reviled for how they behaved towards their enemies.

Posts merged.
~Sher Khan

**tree_of_liberty** · November 22, 2007, 03:48 PM

THanks for the detailed responses. Yeah, that about answers it. I agree with you, Faris... the whole attacking/defending and number of troops triggers seem a little lame. I'm against cheating, but I'm also against a video game feature not working the way its supposed to. I think i'll use the console to give my chivalry guys fair in battle. IN the meantime I'll experiment with getting it naturally.