Falling Reputation

[traiano]

After poking around this forum a bit I thought I had figured out reputation. Only occupy cities, always release prisoners, etc. I've done all these things and never been the one to start a war. Why has my reputation fallen to "mixed"? What else will get it up?

[pwijnands]

A faction leader with high Chivalry is better for your faction's global standing.

[Faris ad Din]

A faction leader with high Chivalry is better for your faction's global standing.

That is another point. Occupying cities and releasing prisoners directly boosts your global standing and attacking neutral factions/allies and employing spies/assassins (unsuccessfully) directly reduces it. But acquiring Chivalry requires different steps. First off occupying/releasing also happens to boost chivalry, employing spies/assassins is SURE to increase your faction leader's dread regardless of whether they are successful or not. I've also heard that it is important, that when you receive the message at the end of the battle when the entire enemy army routs and you are asked to continue, choose "END BATTLE," or else your general will be docked for being a bloodthirsty manhunter. Make sure your general makes some kills in battle too.

[Faris ad Din]

I posted this following post in another forum, "Occupy, sack, or massacre?" http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=127884 post #30. Much of what affects your "GLOBAL REPUTATION" is determined by the file descr_faction_standing.txt in the data folder after you unpack M2:TW. I am going to highlight in blue the sections that would most interest you.

I just thought the following information may help explain the reputation fallout from occupy/sack/exterminate.

The following snippets are taken from descr_faction_standing.txt in the data folder:
; faction standing parameters
; ===========================
; initialisation parameters
min_faction_standing -1.0
max_faction_standing 1.0

; Available MODIFIER_HANDLE's and their corresponding parameters
;
; [value] --> add this 'value' to the affected faction standings
; amount [divisor] [value] --> for every 'divisor' unit of the event amount, add 'value' to the affected faction standings
; income [divisor] [value] --> for every 'divisor' unit of the event factions income, add 'value' to the affected faction standings
; normalise [target_faction_standing] [divisor] --> for each affected faction standing, add (target_faction_standing - faction_standing)/divisor
; per_unit [value] --> for each unit in the events army, add 'value' to the affected faction standings

;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;
;; TRANSGRESSIONS ;;
;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

;------------------------------------------
Trigger 0050_T_Invaded_Fort
WhenToTest Transgression
Condition TransgressionName = TC_INVADED_FORT
FactionStanding target_faction normalise -1.0 10
FactionStanding target_allies normalise -1.0 80
;------------------------------------------
Trigger 0052_T_Invaded_Settlement
WhenToTest Transgression
Condition TransgressionName = TC_INVADED_SETTLEMENT
FactionStanding target_faction normalise -1.0 5
FactionStanding target_allies normalise -1.0 40
;------------------------------------------
Trigger 0061_T_Major_Assassination_Attempt
WhenToTest Transgression
Condition TransgressionName = TC_MAJOR_ASSASSINATION_ATTEMPT
FactionStanding target_faction normalise -1.0 5
FactionStanding target_allies normalise -1.0 40
;------------------------------------------
Trigger 0062_T_Minor_Assassination_Attempt
WhenToTest Transgression
Condition TransgressionName = TC_MINOR_ASSASSINATION_ATTEMPT
FactionStanding target_faction normalise -1.0 20
FactionStanding target_allies normalise -1.0 80
;------------------------------------------
Trigger 0063_T_Sabotage
WhenToTest Transgression
Condition TransgressionName = TC_SABOTAGE
FactionStanding target_faction normalise -1.0 5
FactionStanding target_allies normalise -1.0 40
;------------------------------------------
Trigger 0070_T_Spying
WhenToTest Transgression
Condition TransgressionName = TC_SPYING
FactionStanding target_faction normalise -1.0 20
FactionStanding target_allies normalise -1.0 80

;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;
;; AI Relationships ;;
;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

;------------------------------------------
Trigger 0099_prisoners_released_increase_global
WhenToTest FactionLeaderPrisonersRansomedCaptor
Condition RansomType release
and NumCapturedSoldiers > 80
FactionStanding global 0.025
FactionStanding target_faction normalise 1.0 20
FactionStanding target_allies normalise 1.0 40
;------------------------------------------
Trigger 0100_prisoners_executed_decrease_global
WhenToTest FactionLeaderPrisonersRansomedCaptor
Condition RansomType execute
and NumCapturedSoldiers > 80
FactionStanding global -0.025
FactionStanding target_faction normalise -1.0 20
FactionStanding target_allies normalise -1.0 40
;------------------------------------------
Trigger 0099b_prisoners_released_increase_global
WhenToTest FactionLeaderPrisonersRansomedCaptor
Condition RansomType release
FactionStanding global 0.01
FactionStanding target_faction normalise 1.0 80
FactionStanding target_allies normalise 1.0 160
;------------------------------------------
Trigger 0100b_prisoners_executed_decrease_global
WhenToTest FactionLeaderPrisonersRansomedCaptor
Condition RansomType execute
FactionStanding global -0.01
FactionStanding target_faction normalise -1.0 80
FactionStanding target_allies normalise -1.0 160
;------------------------------------------
Trigger 0099c_characters_released_increase_global
WhenToTest FactionLeaderPrisonersRansomedCaptor
Condition RansomType release
and NumCapturedCharacters > 0
FactionStanding global 0.025
FactionStanding target_faction normalise 1.0 20
FactionStanding target_allies normalise 1.0 40
;------------------------------------------
Trigger 0100c_characters_executed_decrease_global
WhenToTest FactionLeaderPrisonersRansomedCaptor
Condition RansomType execute
and NumCapturedCharacters > 0
FactionStanding global -0.025
FactionStanding target_faction normalise -1.0 20
FactionStanding target_allies normalise -1.0 40
;------------------------------------------
Trigger 0101_sack_settlement_decrease_global
WhenToTest SackSettlement
FactionStanding global -0.02
FactionStanding target_faction normalise -1.0 20
FactionStanding target_allies normalise -1.0 40
; FactionStanding target_enemies normalise 1.0 40
;------------------------------------------
Trigger 0102_extermination_decrease_global
WhenToTest ExterminatePopulation
FactionStanding global -0.05
FactionStanding target_faction normalise -1.0 10
FactionStanding target_allies normalise -1.0 20
; FactionStanding target_enemies normalise 1.0 20
;------------------------------------------
Trigger 0103_occupy_settlement_increase_global
WhenToTest OccupySettlement
FactionStanding global 0.05
FactionStanding target_faction normalise 1.0 20
FactionStanding target_allies normalise 1.0 40
; FactionStanding target_enemies normalise -1.0 40

; make factions like trustworthy factions more
;---------------------------------------------
Trigger 0105_Update_Trustworthy_Factions_Major
WhenToTest FactionTurnStart
Condition GlobalStanding > 0.4
FactionStanding exclude_factions { } normalise 1.0 50
Trigger 0106_Update_Trustworthy_Factions_Minor
WhenToTest FactionTurnStart
Condition GlobalStanding > 0.1
FactionStanding exclude_factions { } normalise 1.0 100
; make factions like untrustworthy factions less
;---------------------------------------------
Trigger 0107_Update_Untrustworthy_Factions_Major
WhenToTest FactionTurnStart
Condition GlobalStanding < -0.4
FactionStanding exclude_factions { } normalise -1.0 50
Trigger 0108_Update_Untrustworthy_Factions_Minor
WhenToTest FactionTurnStart
Condition GlobalStanding < 0.1
FactionStanding exclude_factions { } normalise -1.0 100

Whew! That was a lot to paste!

So factions' standings, whether with other individual factions or globally, is ranked from -1.0 to +1.0. The "normalise" function, if you haven't guessed it, takes the difference between the first number (usually -1.0 or +1.0) and your current standing, divides it by the second and adds it. In other words, "normalise 1.0 100" brings you 1% closer to 1.0, whatever your current standing is, whereas "normalise 1.0 50" brings you 2% closer. The bigger the second number (denominator) is, the smaller the impact, and vice versa.

Back to topic! So occupying a settlement gives you an instant 0.05 boost to global standing, and brings you 1/20 of the way closer to 1.0 perfect relations with the unfortunate target faction, and half as much or 1/40 of the way closer to 1.0 with their allies. Apparently it also used to reduced your standing by the same 1/40 -> 1.0 with that faction's enemies, but it was edited out by CA.

Sacking the settlement, on the other hand, gives you an instant -0.02 penalty to global standing, and brings you 1/20 of the way closer to -1.0 perfectly BAD relations with the target faction, and half as much or 1/40 -> -1.0 with with their allies. Exterminating the settlement will land you with an instant -0.05 penalty to global standing, 1/10 to -1.0 with that faction and 1/20 to -1.0 with their allies.

So: Both sacking and exterminating hurts your relations with the targeted faction and their allies and your global standing, with extermination being worse. Occupation increases your relations with the targeted faction, their allies and your global standing to boot.

Personally, I always occupy. Both the Dread and Chivalry paths have their uses, though like Metellus I prefer the Chivalry path, which I argue has better merits in the early game. Chivalry characters really boost the population growth of settlements they govern as well as (correct me if I'm wrong) increase public order, which is a must for campaigns like the Egyptian campaign: more population = more taxes and bigger walls to fend off Crusaders and Mongols. Secondly the boost to global standing never hurts. Thirdly it can be different challenge to gain the loyalty of newly conquered populations (army of priests to precede the "real" army makes life easier too). Do you want to make a quick buck for an early tight spot (and build dread character traits) or choose long term benefits to growth, income and diplomacy? I think that's the real call.

Here's a second quote from another poster:

Spying and assassination only drops your reputation if you are caught doing it. I've modded my game to give my spies and assassins beter odds and use them all the time (assassins more than spies) and my reputation is always reliable or very reliable.

For reputation: never attack neutral factions/allies. Occupy cities, release prisoners. If factions do start wars with you don't punish them disproportionately to what they do to you, i.e. don't make a habit of wiping out factions. Avoid spies and assassins, if you must use them, I personally use spies as they are highly useful for exploring terrain and counterspying enemy spies/assassins. I had "reliable" reputation going, always occupying/releasing prisoners and never initiating hostilities but it fell to "mixed" because I started cranking out assassins to kill some enemy spies and assassins. Once I stopped using assassins it slowly went back up to reliable.

If you have been occupying/releasing my bet is that you were employing assassins.

[pwijnands]

Once a character has a dread or chivalry trait, it's highly unlikely to go back (unless you do really bad stuff like executing prisoners and exterminating cities).

You are right about your faction leader getting dread when you train and use assassins. I modded that out and modded the chances for my assassins to succeed.

[traiano]

I have not yet created a single assassin. I have two spies but they're only in two of my cities to stop those HRE bastards from infiltration. It doesn't make sense to me the way my reputation is mixed.

Another observation: after several battles my generals have increased their dread. Sometimes twice! I have never selected "execute" or even "random" but the dread characteristic has been picked up. What's going on there? And is that impacting my leader?

[pwijnands]

The dread of your generals shouldn't affect your faction leader's chivalry. Basically your generals get dread if they fight with superior odds. All you need is the basic level of the BattleChivalry trait and you won't get BattleDread. Go fight some Muslims (or Christians or Orthodox's if you are Islamic) to get a basic level.

[Faris ad Din]

Look at your generals and post what dread traits they happen to be picking up in battles. There are many, many actions that could result in extra dread for your generals, but much of the script in game is designed so that generals ALREADY with dread build it up faster, and the same for generals with chivalry. So having your general make some kills in battle (so he doesn't get branded as a coward) could either make him look bloodthirsty or a selfless hero.

Second, global reputation also "normalizes" over time to neutral (mixed). Is it early in your campaign, because going above "mixed" reputation takes a while to do. If I have the time I'll go into the descr_faction_standing.txt to show you how much global reputation normalizes. It's pretty small but it can slow your progress to "reliable" or "very reliable."

[traiano]

Yes, it's early in my game! I guess I've just been a bit too impatient...

[Faris ad Din]

That's just it. Depending on how many "chances" you get to increase your global standing, i.e. occupying settlements and releasing prisoners, it can take you a long while to build it up... say at least twenty to thirty turns.

[Bluice]

Faris ad din, thanks for the speedy responses on my thread originally

"Occupy, sack, or massacre?"

And this one, very informative.

[vonKrysiak]

@Faris ad Din - very informative indeed.
+Rep !

[english tyrant]

@faris ad din good post
+rep

[Faris ad Din]

So many compliments over some simple copying and pasting (and a bit of highlighting)...

Here's a bit more from the same file to follow up on what I said about factions' reputation "normalizing" to neutral (mixed) reputation. There are lots and lots of different factors that affect your global standing, with different strengths, but there's one that makes it sort of "wear off" over time.

;------------------------------------------
Trigger 0096_Increase_Global_Standing_New_Turn
WhenToTest FactionTurnStart

FactionStanding global normalise 0.0 200

So this makes you lose 0.5% of the difference to perfectly neutral 0.0 global standing every turn.

Here's another interesting one:

;------------------------------------------
Trigger 0097_Increase_Global_Standing_When_Allied
WhenToTest UpdateAttitude

Condition DiplomaticStanceFactions = Allied

FactionStanding global normalise 1.0 400

;------------------------------------------
Trigger 0098_Decrease_Global_Standing_When_War
WhenToTest UpdateAttitude

Condition DiplomaticStanceFactions = AtWar
and not TargetFactionType slave

FactionStanding global normalise -1.0 800

Basically gives you a small bonus to global standing if you have an alliance with another faction, and a smaller penalty if you're in a state of war with another faction. This is one trigger that I do not like myself, because it penalizes even factions that never initiate hostilities. Playing Egypt or Turkey and conquering the Holy Land can get the Pope to call a crusade on you, which can cause five, six, seven or more Catholic factions who you may never have met, to instantly declare war on you. Until the Crusade fails and you manage to send diplomats across the world to parlay with nations like England or Denmark for cease-fires this can really slow down your aspirations for better global standing.

NOT to overburden you readers with more data-laden mumbo jumbo, but here's another one.

; Adjust the AI relationships towards each faction based on difficulty level (AI factions have normal difficulty)
;------------------------------------------
Trigger 0092_Update_Easy_Difficulty
WhenToTest FactionTurnStart

Condition CampaignDifficulty = easy

FactionStanding exclude_factions { } normalise 1.0 50

;------------------------------------------
Trigger 0093_Update_Normal_Difficulty
WhenToTest FactionTurnStart

Condition CampaignDifficulty = medium

FactionStanding exclude_factions { } normalise 0.0 50

;------------------------------------------
Trigger 0094_Update_Hard_Difficulty
WhenToTest FactionTurnStart

Condition CampaignDifficulty = hard

FactionStanding exclude_factions { } normalise -0.5 50

;------------------------------------------
Trigger 0095_Update_Very_Hard_Difficulty
WhenToTest FactionTurnStart

Condition CampaignDifficulty = very_hard

FactionStanding exclude_factions { } normalise -1.0 40

This is a pretty strong trigger that can have a big bearing on diplomacy depending on campaign difficulty level! So:
1. Easy campaign difficulty tends to bring all factions to good reputation.
2. Normal campaign difficulty tends to bring all factions to neutral (mixed) reputation.
3. Hard campaign difficulty tends to bring all factions to bad reputation.
4. Very Hard campaign difficulty tends even more to bring all factions to bad reputation.

That is a consideration, and the fact that harder difficulties give the AI a financial advantage.