Attack and Defence, some1 please clarify...?

[Bluice]

I have a question that may confuse you but I hope I explain it properly because I really want to get clarification on it.

Attack and defence stats.

Say two opposing units charge in and attack each other at the same time, now both units are clashing steel at the same time exchanging blows and blocks. Where do the stats come into play there?

As opposed to a unit standing still bracing for a charge, then obviously thats where the defence stat will be used.

If you have spearmen is it better to charge and meet them halfway or stand there ground and utilize their higher defence stat compared to their minimal attack stat.

[supekele]

This is what I've observed, and it is by no means 100% accurate. In fact, I might be feeding you false info in a minute if one of the mod junkies comes along.

The attack value is compared with the defense value to see how likely that unit will skewer the other guy. Having a bonus against a certain type (billhook vs armor or spears vs cavalry for example) increases these odds. Defense (I don't think skill is involved) is also calculated against missile attacks. In melee, skill is probably a factor in determining who gets better defense.

[Renco]

I used to enjoy watching pavise Xbowen slaughter Aztecs in slow mo. They were charging with all their might ans suddenly they get shot. You see the arrow coming up and slowly penetrating their skulls or chests. They fall by the tens, the men left to die while the survivors finish the charge.

The point is that Aztecs have awful armor anyway, so they rely on their defence skill. Whilst charging they have no chance of survival. After the initiate combat they can put many a knight to shame. Consequently, when they made contact I just watched their general for about 4 minutes (which in regualar time equated to 15 minutes), and the fool wouldn't go down. He was alone taking on like 2 groups of Pavise and he was already massivley bloody. He just kept dogding everything and jabbing his foes in the face with his mighty warstick of doom. It was incredibly fun to watch and in the end I retreated to make him the victor and not die. Next turn he was a general and was shot down, but that's not relevant.

The point is tha Aztecs have high defence, so they are good in prolonged melee. Perhaps they should not charge when facing off against melee to maximise the potential of the dodge, whilst a knight has the sheer mass to take out almost anyone stupid enough to stand their ground or counter charge. This is a driving factor of the Sword and Buckler men of Spain. They have good defence skill, and are well suited to the Aztecs, whilst the conquistadors can take over the heavy aspect.

So judge on the person. High defence skill and let them utilise the dodge. High armour, make them charge as they will be protected and the extra attack kicks ass. Shield is good for both, but to a lesser extent, I think. I'm not really sure about high shield defence, but I would assume stationary would be good.

[pwijnands]

Defense skill is only used in melee attacks from the front and the right.
Armor is always used but only counts for 50% if armor piercing attacks are used. Gunpowder attacks ignore 50% as well I think.
Shield is only used in attacks from the left and the front. And is ignored by 50% for armor piercing attacks and I think is completely ignored by gunpowder attacks.

So the defense of a unit can vary greatly and is 0 if they are attacked from behind. I think defense simply lowers the damage done from an attack. Animation also plays a huge role, slow two-handed weapons hardly ever get in an attack if a soldier is surrounded by several other units. Which is how I once had my Varangian guard unit get completely slaughtered by Saracen militia on top of the walls. Because the way my soldiers positioned themselves they constantly had to fight against 2:1 or 3:1 odds. I managed to kill about 15-20% of the Saracen militia unit, which was also under fire from my archers.

[Lost Crusader]

Defense skill is only used in melee attacks from the front and the right.
Armor is always used but only counts for 50% if armor piercing attacks are used. Gunpowder attacks ignore 50% as well I think.
Shield is only used in attacks from the left and the front. And is ignored by 50% for armor piercing attacks and I think is completely ignored by gunpowder attacks.

Not exactly.
The defense skill equally counts from all sides, except form behind, during the melee, and is ignored by missiles.
Shield is used 100% from the front, 50% from left and right side, and ignored from the rear. It is ignored by the gunpowder.
You're right about armor.

[NobleNick]

Bluice,

There has been a good discussion of what makes up defense stats; but I suspect that is not your question. YOur question gets into the mechanics of the game, which CA doesn't exactly lay out on a silver platter for us to disect. Here is how I understand the mechanics (mostly taken from my research in RTW).

lets say two spear units attack each other, on level ground. Let's say that both units have an attack of 5 and a defense of 7. The attack number of each man in contact with an enemy is compared to the defense number of that enemy. Let's focus in on 2 single opponents within these units. A random number is calculated based upon the attack number of the guy swinging (5) and the defense of the guy receiving the attack (7). If the random number meets a certain criteria (high enough or low enough, I do not know which), then the defender loses a hitpoint. Since most soldiers only have one hitpoint, this means death to the receiver of the attack. If the attack was not successful, then the defender gets to take a stab at his opponent, and for a moment the roles are switched: the old defender is now the attacker. His attack number (5) is used and compared against his opponent's defense number (7). If he succeeds, his opponent goes down. If not, the process is repeated.

In the case above, neither unit was at an advantage. A charging unit gets a charge bonus, which is added to the attack number. However, a staionary and readied spear formation gets an effective bonus, since all of its men are facing front (no chance to get a side attack in on any man). Let's say that the charge bonus is 1. Then the charging unit would get an effective attack of 6. However, due to the fact that the attacking unit is no longer in perfect formation, its defense number might now be lowered from 7 down to 5-1/2. In this case, I do not know which unit is at an advantage, but would guess the stationary unit is at an advantage. (You can find out for yourself by running 20 or 30 identical custom battles and taking good notes.)

Spears are definitely at an advantage by being stationary when receiving a cav charge (and all charges I can think of, for that matter).

So, The attacker and defender both use attack and defense stats for each man-to-man encounter. Factors such as charging, standing, relative orientation of the units to each other, weather, terrain, and unit types affect the attack and defense numbers.

[pwijnands]

Not exactly.
The defense skill equally counts from all sides during the melee, and is ignored by missiles.
Shield is used 100% from the front, 50% from left and right side, and ignored from the rear. It is ignored by the gunpowder.
You're right about armor.

I got my info from the Faust thingy. It has a little picture of a soldier which explains shield, skill and armor values for defense. It made a lot of sense to me, as it would be hard to dodge when attacked from behind. Especially when you're already fighting someone else.

[Lost Crusader]

I got my info from the Faust thingy.

So did I . In fact I made a mistake when I said that the skill is equal from all sides, when in fact is ignored from behind. I'll edit my original post to correct it. Everything else I said is correct.

[vonKrysiak]

Damn pwijnands that is the right answer to that - I wanted to writethe same thing but had to download the official pdf ;-)

[FuriousSpurius]

FAUST has a really good explanation of defenses at the end of the breakdowns and I think pwijnands summed it up for the most part (can't remember exactly). Certain skills are taken into effect depending on where they are attacked, and that's why flanking is effective since it's figured out in the stats.

I've never really been sure about defense stats, and usually I focus on attack, since most of the time I'm an aggressor. I do use heavily armored units, however, to tie up their infantry so I can bring around my horse from the sides.

I believe shields help to cut down losses from arrow attacks. It seems much harder to bring down spear militia than it is to drop archers with arrows, since archers have no shield.

I know FAUST has an explanation of it laid out, if anyone has the link off hand that may be helpful.

[Bluice]

Thank you guys much appreciated

Defense skill is only used in melee attacks from the front and the right.
Armor is always used but only counts for 50% if armor piercing attacks are used. Gunpowder attacks ignore 50% as well I think.
Shield is only used in attacks from the left and the front. And is ignored by 50% for armor piercing attacks and I think is completely ignored by gunpowder attacks.

Makes sense, I will have make sure I position my units better in the future, I never realised the stats were based on the direction of the attack.