guns, germs and steel? (and horses)

[Heavy_]

hey everyone, after another somewhat mediocre campaign in the America's
playing as the Mayans. Historically inaccurate details began to attract my attention. Mostly about the unit balancing. It would seem if you didn't know any better you would look upon Native vs Native battle tactics and think "why are the Europeans wearing warpaint, padded armor and feathery decorations?"
Well, if you do, its probably because your noticing, like I, that the formations and unit commands are of course identical.
A few things,
1 - Aztecs and Mayans weapons and fighting strategies, unlike Europeans, were not to kill the enemy but to capture them so they could sacrifice them. Which is why there weapons commonly consisted of obsidian and clubs. I'm not saying they really had a choice in upping the anti on their gear but all the same I would like to see more P.O.W.'s when playing as any of the factions in question.

2 - Speaking of weapons, I noticed that when fighting Europeans such as Spain or New France etc. I could spend half the money they do on units
and still devour their new age units and tactics in a 1 - 1 ratio. Although were lead to believe gunners had any impact on medieval society. the truth is quite obvious if you tell them to hold their ground they start performing some kind of weird dance formation and only put out 1/4 the amount of rounds any other missile unit would. If you want then to fire at a target running towards either of their sides they have to turn the entire formation around which is such a long and hairy process, that by the time your done the battle will be at a conclusion. And finally commanding them to target oncoming native infantry and being affective is nigh impossible. The enemy is almost as fast as horses. You'll get off one volley! thats it. If anything at least make it so that one shot is a little more affective, rather than watching any of its victims who are bare breasted just shake it off like an annoying drizzle of rain.

3 - Alas, European infantry seem to be nowhere as near as powerful as one might think. Even though having advantages like plate armor, steel weaponry and professional training in military drills that have been perfected through centuries of conflict, the impact is folly when it comes down to the real meat and gravy. Over and over, slaughtering European forces is quite simple.

4 - And finally cavalry. Cavalry could be one of the only units that really make an impression on the native factions. Their mobility can be outstanding up against fast runners, and their charge almost unstoppable thanks to the speed update. Unfortunately one of the most prized possessions of the Europeans is not only countered but copied as well. I have no problem with those factions bearing anti-cavalry units, but at least make it so the the units carrying clubs of obsidian aren't wiping out my whole mounted armada, even when being flanked.

Anyways, no hard feelings to anyone who might be offended. But I think the Campaign would be far more interesting if gunner units were either faster or did more damage. And it would be more challenging to take on technologically advanced foreigners even if you have them outnumbered.

SOOO ....peace everyone and tell me what you think

(sorry for the multi-thread my bad)

[Boz]

I agree with you, some units like the jaguars are to powerfull and too easy to recruit with for example the mayans, a part that 75 soldiers is to much for an ellite unit.

The principal problem is that is imposible to recreat the history easily , I am with the mayans in the campaing and the spanish are no match if they are outnumebered, and I was thinking that defeat them it was the great challenge of the game but they have been pulled of the continent very easily.

Another thing is that england and france are clons of spain and defeat them is the same practicly.

I suppose the only solution is modding.

[Metellus]

It should be fairly easy to mod the damage of gun units, I would definitely like to see musket balls that aren't shrugged off so easily. I'm no modder though.

[FriendoftheDork]

I totally disagree.

1. First of all I think it is fairly easy to rout enemies in this game, so natives taking captives should work fairly often. The only drawback is that the enemy is just as fast as you so it's harder to chase them down. That said, by using units with high endurance you can fight and chase them down when they're exhausted.

And really, the obsidian club/sword was made as a weapon of killing and maiming, not for taking people captive.

2. Secondly I found out that when playing New Spain the enemy was harmless. Really, you just can't lose and I won one heroic victory after another. You infantry, except for the pikemen (which realistically sucks in the new world), can eat indians for breakfast. Their excelent attack and defense, not to mention 2 hit points really makes up for their half unit count. The only danger is that they can get exhausted from all their killing.
Cannons and musketeers means you can engage the enemy from extreme distance, and then either force them to engage you quickly or to hold their ground and hope you run out of bullets. I usually got 100-200 kills out of an 80 man musketeer unit. Sure, if they charge right away you don't get as much, but then your infantry and cavalry can do the job very well. Missile units are very damaging in this game, so they increased the speed of the the infantry alot compared to Medieval 1. I either use them in structured formation, when they can change ranks fairly quickly and deliver devastating barrages, or in skirmish where they shoot at will from the edge of the battle and cause some casualties even when the enemy has engaged you.

3. Are we playing the same game? The reason why you pawn them is because you're a human player vs an AI, and really they can't use their units. Even when I fought the french I found out their can't use gunpowder weapons any good. I'm glad they didn't make the europeans any better, as it would be no challenge for the player at all.

4. The conquistador units is one of the best in the game, and you get tons of them with New Spain. The Azzies and Mayans really have little counter against them, as they can defeat even spearmen quite often. I got several units with 9 XP after killing so many. Only jaguars and spearmen in formation has any chance, and even they can expect to take heavy casualties against one. Just don't let the enemy surround them with spearmen and you should be fine. And FYI a obsidian club can sever a horse's head... and they usually didn't armor their horses much that late, at least not in the new world.

If anything I wouldn't mind if gunpowder weapons had MUCH slower reload time but much greater effect on morale. But anyway gunpowder weapons did not conquer Mexico, cortez only had a handful of them, much less than the unit he starts out with. Crossbows were more plentiful, and cold hard steel. Not that he would have a chance without his Tlaxcalan (sp?) allies - but all this is impossible to represent in a TW game.