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  1. #1

    Default guns, germs and steel? (and horses)

    hey everyone, after another somewhat mediocre campaign in the America's
    playing as the Mayans. Historically inaccurate details began to attract my attention. Mostly about the unit balancing. It would seem if you didn't know any better you would look upon Native vs Native battle tactics and think "why are the Europeans wearing warpaint, padded armor and feathery decorations?"
    Well, if you do, its probably because your noticing, like I, that the formations and unit commands are of course identical.
    A few things,
    1 - Aztecs and Mayans weapons and fighting strategies, unlike Europeans, were not to kill the enemy but to capture them so they could sacrifice them. Which is why there weapons commonly consisted of obsidian and clubs. I'm not saying they really had a choice in upping the anti on their gear but all the same I would like to see more P.O.W.'s when playing as any of the factions in question.

    2 - Speaking of weapons, I noticed that when fighting Europeans such as Spain or New France etc. I could spend half the money they do on units
    and still devour their new age units and tactics in a 1 - 1 ratio. Although were lead to believe gunners had any impact on medieval society. the truth is quite obvious if you tell them to hold their ground they start performing some kind of weird dance formation and only put out 1/4 the amount of rounds any other missile unit would. If you want then to fire at a target running towards either of their sides they have to turn the entire formation around which is such a long and hairy process, that by the time your done the battle will be at a conclusion. And finally commanding them to target oncoming native infantry and being affective is nigh impossible. The enemy is almost as fast as horses. You'll get off one volley! thats it. If anything at least make it so that one shot is a little more affective, rather than watching any of its victims who are bare breasted just shake it off like an annoying drizzle of rain.

    3 - Alas, European infantry seem to be no were as near as powerful as one might think. Even though having advantages like plate armor, steel weaponry and professional training in military drills that have been perfected through centuries of conflict, the impact is folly when it comes down to the real meat and gravy. Over and over, slaughtering European forces is quite simple.

    4 - And finally cavalry. Cavalry could be one of the only units that really make an impression on the native factions. Their mobility can be outstanding up against fast runners, and their charge almost unstoppable thanks to the speed update. Unfortunately one of the most prized possessions of the Europeans is not only countered but copied as well. I have no problem with those factions bearing anti-cavalry units, but at least make it so the the units carrying clubs of obsidian aren't wiping out my whole mounted armada, even when being flanked.

    Anyways, no hard feelings to anyone who might be offended. But I think the Campaign would be far more interesting if gunner units were either faster or did more damage. And it would be more challenging to take on technologically advanced foreigners even if you have them outnumbered.

    SOOO....peace everyone and tell me what you think

  2. #2

    Default Re: guns, germs and steel? (and horses)

    (sorry for the multi-thread my bad)

  3. #3

    Default Re: guns, germs and steel? (and horses)

    Quote Originally Posted by Heavy_ View Post
    hey everyone, after another somewhat mediocre campaign in the America's
    playing as the Mayans. Historically inaccurate details began to attract my attention. Mostly about the unit balancing. It would seem if you didn't know any better you would look upon Native vs Native battle tactics and think "why are the Europeans wearing warpaint, padded armor and feathery decorations?"
    Well, if you do, its probably because your noticing, like I, that the formations and unit commands are of course identical.
    A few things,
    1 - Aztecs and Mayans weapons and fighting strategies, unlike Europeans, were not to kill the enemy but to capture them so they could sacrifice them. Which is why there weapons commonly consisted of obsidian and clubs. I'm not saying they really had a choice in upping the anti on their gear but all the same I would like to see more P.O.W.'s when playing as any of the factions in question.

    2 - Speaking of weapons, I noticed that when fighting Europeans such as Spain or New France etc. I could spend half the money they do on units
    and still devour their new age units and tactics in a 1 - 1 ratio. Although were lead to believe gunners had any impact on medieval society. the truth is quite obvious if you tell them to hold their ground they start performing some kind of weird dance formation and only put out 1/4 the amount of rounds any other missile unit would. If you want then to fire at a target running towards either of their sides they have to turn the entire formation around which is such a long and hairy process, that by the time your done the battle will be at a conclusion. And finally commanding them to target oncoming native infantry and being affective is nigh impossible. The enemy is almost as fast as horses. You'll get off one volley! thats it. If anything at least make it so that one shot is a little more affective, rather than watching any of its victims who are bare breasted just shake it off like an annoying drizzle of rain.

    3 - Alas, European infantry seem to be no were as near as powerful as one might think. Even though having advantages like plate armor, steel weaponry and professional training in military drills that have been perfected through centuries of conflict, the impact is folly when it comes down to the real meat and gravy. Over and over, slaughtering European forces is quite simple.

    4 - And finally cavalry. Cavalry could be one of the only units that really make an impression on the native factions. Their mobility can be outstanding up against fast runners, and their charge almost unstoppable thanks to the speed update. Unfortunately one of the most prized possessions of the Europeans is not only countered but copied as well. I have no problem with those factions bearing anti-cavalry units, but at least make it so the the units carrying clubs of obsidian aren't wiping out my whole mounted armada, even when being flanked.

    Anyways, no hard feelings to anyone who might be offended. But I think the Campaign would be far more interesting if gunner units were either faster or did more damage. And it would be more challenging to take on technologically advanced foreigners even if you have them outnumbered.

    SOOO....peace everyone and tell me what you think
    1. Hardcoded... prisoners are only taken when the enemy is routing. The problem is... this means you'll want to make troops rout when fighting other aztecs but not when fighting the Spanish.

    2,3, and 4 well I'm doing a mod for the Americas campaign... so play will be better and more realistic.

    The Spanish will simply be better then the Aztecs with practically everything... however there will be a lot more aztec soldiers. The Spanish will need to use morale, good cavlry charges and good battle strategy to win. The Spanish will be a quite hard faction to play as... the AI may need some help however. Basically suffice to say there will be plenty of siege assaults... the Spanish will want to capture cities(they will attack before reinforcents arrive ofcourse) and fortify them while the Aztecs will have to try and lure the Spanish into field battles while using some geurilla tactics. I'm personally for gameplay over realism in certain circumstances... and the Spanish will have quite a few 2hp units adding an interesting dynamic. Aztec archers will have quite short range and low power however good accuracy. Wheras the Spanish will have long range and high power however (concidering the fact they will be firing from further away) usually less accuracy.

    I will also make quite a distinction between the noble Aztec classes (Jaguar warriors, eagle warriors etc) where they will both have considerable stamina and charge stats as well as the Jaguar warriors having higher armour stats then any other unit for the Aztecs condering they are pretty much the only unit wearing effective armour from the Aztecs.

    Anyway summer holidays coming up soon and expect quite a few 6-8 hour days working on it then.

  4. #4

    Default Re: guns, germs and steel? (and horses)

    sounds good. Too bad about about the hardcoded material. Thumbs with the mod. And I was going to add in the element of having distinctly more powerful units for the natives but I wanted to wrap it up. Also are there any mods that make musketeers a little more deadly against armor??

  5. #5

    Default Re: guns, germs and steel? (and horses)

    Quote Originally Posted by Heavy_ View Post
    1 - Aztecs and Mayans weapons and fighting strategies, unlike Europeans, were not to kill the enemy but to capture them so they could sacrifice them. Which is why there weapons commonly consisted of obsidian and clubs.
    They used clubs and Obsidian because they did not know how to work iron.
    Furthermore the conception that a club ( at least one of the form and material of an Aztekan war club ) is suited to ko somebody is a misconception. These weapons where made to kill not to stun.

    2 - Speaking of weapons, I noticed that when fighting Europeans such as Spain or New France etc. I could spend half the money they do on units
    and still devour their new age units and tactics in a 1 - 1 ratio.
    Thats the AI - if I play a battle Spain against Azteks ( for example ) on VH I can easily kill 3 times the number of indegenes.
    The thing is that the only thing the AI does quite well is a mad rush with infantry ...

  6. #6

    Default Re: guns, germs and steel? (and horses)

    Quote Originally Posted by Oberhut View Post
    They used clubs and Obsidian because they did not know how to work iron.
    Furthermore the conception that a club ( at least one of the form and material of an Aztekan war club ) is suited to ko somebody is a misconception. These weapons where made to kill not to stun.



    Thats the AI - if I play a battle Spain against Azteks ( for example ) on VH I can easily kill 3 times the number of indegenes.
    The thing is that the only thing the AI does quite well is a mad rush with infantry ...
    It seems the AI was actually better at BI style tactics on BI heh.

  7. #7

    Default Re: guns, germs and steel? (and horses)

    I suspect that the Mesoamerican's high attack power is because CA wanted to make the game more balanced. They probably assumed that players would not want to play as Mesoamerican factions it the Europeans were easily able to slaughter them due to their superior technology (they may also find playing as the Europeans too easy).
    Morning Sun (adds Korea and China to the Shogun 2 map)
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/forum...28-Morning-Sun

    Expanded Japan mod (97 new regions and 101 new factions)
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...ew-factions%29

    How to split a region in TWS2
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...split-a-region

    Eras Total Conquest 2.3 (12 campaigns from 970-1547)

  8. #8

    Default Re: guns, germs and steel? (and horses)

    Quote Originally Posted by uanime5 View Post
    I suspect that the Mesoamerican's high attack power is because CA wanted to make the game more balanced. They probably assumed that players would not want to play as Mesoamerican factions it the Europeans were easily able to slaughter them due to their superior technology (they may also find playing as the Europeans too easy).
    In reality the Europeans won because of some very clever tactics(including diplomacy etc)... even with their superior technology and disease.

    This is the problem... a lot of factions only became so great because of good generals and you can't really represent this in a tw game.

    Also the simple fact is... CA must have balanced the Americas for a certain unit size... and IMO battles are better on huge. Things usually play a lot better on huge (assuming it's balanced for it).
    Last edited by Darkarbiter; November 20, 2007 at 04:08 PM.

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