Weak Spartans in eb

[Realism over Fun]

hey i would like to know the historical reason why the spartans arrent better than other elite units in eb...

come on they were the :wub: in 300,,, even do that was a movie an the time was different than in eb.

i thougt they would be super units but at a high cost and low number long training tim.

[Imperator Sulla]

We have to get over this Spartans-where-super-soldiers-myth. Yes, they were profesional, fulltime soldiers and yes they were very skilled, well trained warriors, but they were still just men. Spartans were on more than one occasion defeated by other helenistic armies(Thebe, Athens) who made use of better tactics. Spartan formations, when flanked, were just as easely disrupted as other phalanx formations and Spartans were equaly vulnerable to javalins as other similarly armoured units.

[Pwntality]

armies(Thebe, Athens) who made use of better tactics. Spartan formations, when flanked, were just as easely disrupted as other phalanx formations and Spartans were equaly vulnerable to javalins as other similarly armoured units.

not to mention lack of solid cav.

[Mathias]

If you haven't noticed it, they are damned powerful in the game. Only a few other units are better than them, and I for one get rather nervous when I engage spartan hoplites without cavalry to charge their rear.

[Sidus Preclarum]

Weak Spartans ? For a decadent people suffering from severe oliganthropy, I find them far too numerous and far to tough in my own SPQR campaign :p
Then again, I think the Greeks could benefit from a reform, where they'd lose spartans and other hoplites and gain more thureophoroi, plus Thorakitai and Phalangites (call that an Cleomenes/Philopoemen reform) ... But that's just me...

[Admetos]

Originally Posted by Realism over Fun
come on they were the :wub: in 300

You know, that really dosen't count for much...

[Ludens]

Then again, I think the Greeks could benefit from a reform, where they'd lose spartans and other hoplites and gain more thureophoroi, plus Thorakitai and Phalangites (call that an Cleomenes/Philopoemen reform) ... But that's just me...

Actually, they already have a phalanx unit that is coupled to the vanilla Marian reforms. The Thorakitai are available at the start, as are Thureophoroi. They won't lose their hoplites, though, but I think the KH wouldn't be the KH without their hoplites.

[konny]

Then again, I think the Greeks could benefit from a reform, where they'd lose spartans and other hoplites and gain more thureophoroi, plus Thorakitai and Phalangites (call that an Cleomenes/Philopoemen reform) ... But that's just me...

Unfortuantly the "Iphikratian" line up of the Greek faction is a little underrepresented in EB, both in the AI raising of units as well as in the starting army of KH. But it is all there from Peltastai to Iphikratous Phalangitai to Thureophoroi, Thorakitai and the Thorakitai Phalangitai.

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

hey i would like to know the historical reason why the spartans arrent better than other elite units in eb...

come on they were the :wub: in 300,,, even do that was a movie an the time was different than in eb.

i thougt they would be super units but at a high cost and low number long training tim.

I think your name is why Spartans in EB are what they are.

Spartans are realtively strong in EB, anyways.
And The 300 is about 2% historically accurate, so it shouldn't be a source, even for that time period.

[Renegen]

2% Historically accurate nah 7%

[icydawgfish]

Same, that's what makes them the msot unique Hellenic faction in my opinion because the rest just spam pikemen.

[Zarax]

If you want "300 level" spartans then you might want to look at other mods, like XGM...

[starXdiaMoo]

Spartans are not weak if you know how to use them, my friend... Not to mention their out-of-date tactics, like using heavy armour and trusting on the phalanx to win the battle. When the phalanx gets disrupted, wearing all this armour is like being trapped in a metallic cage. Try wearing all this armour yourself and you will understand what I mean

[Mathias]

I surrounded a unit of spartans with several units of principes and hastati (at least 3 units) and the spartans almost won... That was playing on hard battle difficulty btw, but they do kick ass in medium as well.

[iluvatar77]

i think the eb 1.0 spartans are well balanced for the mod and for what they were in that historical time. the spartan hoplites of the 2nd and 1st century bce were not exactly the same to the ones that fought at thermopylae. were still formidable soldiers, but not the unyielding killing machines they were once. besides most of the spartans enemies had learnes the way to fight the powerfull spartan hoplites more efectively. but i find their morale is too low, they didnt just to fight till death, but stiil were hard and well drilled soldiers, mayde increasing their morale a little bit would be more accurate.

[starXdiaMoo]

i think the eb 1.0 spartans are well balanced for the mod and for what they were in that historical time. the spartan hoplites of the 2nd and 1st century bce were not exactly the same to the ones that fought at thermopylae. were still formidable soldiers, but not the unyielding killing machines they were once. besides most of the spartans enemies had learnes the way to fight the powerfull spartan hoplites more efectively. but i find their morale is too low, they didnt just to fight till death, but stiil were hard and well drilled soldiers, mayde increasing their morale a little bit would be more accurate.

I agree completely with what you say, my friend!

[Admetos]

Originally Posted by iluvatar77
but i find their morale is too low, they didnt just to fight till death, but stiil were hard and well drilled soldiers, mayde increasing their morale a little bit would be more accurate.

This is because they don't have "very_hardy" or even just "hardy" in the EDU, and neither do the Epiletkoi or the Somatophylakes. IIRC this was a mistake by the EB team and is going to be fixed in 1.1, but it's not too hard to just add it in yourself for now.

[Titus Marcellus Scato]

I remember back when RTR first came out, I made a little mod which made the Spartans "Invincible But Doomed".

Basically I altered the game so that the Spartans were absolute super-soldiers, maximum experience, maximum weapon upgrades - but couldn't be recruited.

That's right - Spartans couldn't be recruited or retrained - by anybody. Ever.

The Greek faction had two units of 'super Spartans' at the beginning of the game, that would totally own any other unit in the game 1 on 1. But every Spartan soldier that died couldn't be replaced. So over the course of the campaign, the Spartan 'army' got smaller and smaller and smaller and eventually vanished from history.

Which is pretty much what happened in reality - I read that the cost of training a Spartan hoplite skyrocketed, so that only the Spartan nobility could afford the training, and the Spartans had to rely more and more on levies and mercenaries. Eventually this led to Sparta's defeat and downfall.

It was a good little mod, IMO - I enjoyed it, anyway!

[gaius valerius]

It wasn't the cost of recruitement, it was the system itself that was to hard. as you all know becoming a spartan and completing the agoge wasn't something everybody could handle. many children were discarded at birth (thrown of the mountain) or died during training. this went well as long as the populace was high and casualties low. but from the persian wars on warfare become more and more constant (the peloponessic war and onwards). sparta kept bleeding but internally wasn't fit enough to control this bleeding due to the construction of spartan society itself. so basically sparta destroyed itself. financial burdens have little to do with it, it was their rigid society that screwed them over.

[Ludens]

Gaius Valerius is right, but what actually killed the Spartan system was the abolishment of the Messenian helotry. Because the Spartans were full time soldiers, some else had to do the actual farming and other work. This was done by the Lakedaimonian and Messenian helots. However, after being defeated by Thebes if my memory serves me correctly, the Spartans were forced to relinquish their control over the Messenians resulting in a major agricultural shortage. Having also lost a significant part of their fighting force as well as their dominance over Southern Greece, the Spartans had no real option but stop the agoge and have their men work on the fields again.