Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 22

Thread: Dude, I have this rad theory in my GUT

Hybrid View

Previous Post Previous Post   Next Post Next Post
  1. #1
    Big War Bird's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    South Carolina, USA
    Posts
    12,340

    Default Dude, I have this rad theory in my GUT

    Quote Originally Posted by NewScientist
    Is mathematical pattern the theory of everything?
    10:00 15 November 2007
    NewScientist.com news service
    Zeeya Merali


    GARRETT LISI is an unlikely individual to be staking a claim for a theory of everything. He has no university affiliation and spends most of the year surfing in Hawaii. In winter, he heads to the mountains near Lake Tahoe, California, to teach snowboarding. Until recently, physics was not much more than a hobby.

    That hasn't stopped some leading physicists sitting up and taking notice after Lisi made his theory public on the physics pre-print archive this week (www.arxiv.org/abs/0711.0770). By analysing the most elegant and intricate pattern known to mathematics, Lisi has uncovered a relationship underlying all the universe's particles and forces, including gravity - or so he hopes. Lee Smolin at the Perimeter Institute for Theoretical Physics (PI) in Waterloo, Ontario, Canada, describes Lisi's work as "fabulous". "It is one of the most compelling unification models I've seen in many, many years," he says.

    That's some achievement, as physicists have been trying to find a uniform framework for the fundamental forces and particles ever since they developed the standard model more than 30 years ago. The standard model successfully weaves together three of the four fundamental forces of nature: the electromagnetic force; the strong force, which binds quarks together in atomic nuclei; and the weak force, which controls radioactive decay. The problem has been that gravity has so far refused to join the party.

    Most attempts to bring gravity into the picture have been based on string theory, which proposes that particles are ultimately composed of minuscule strings. Lisi has never been a fan of string theory and says that it's because of pressure to step into line that he abandoned academia after his PhD. "I've never been much of a follower, so I walked off to search for my own theory," he says. Last year, he won a research grant from the charitably funded Foundational Questions Institute to pursue his ideas.

    He had been tinkering with "weird" equations for years and getting nowhere, but six months ago he stumbled on a research paper analysing E8 - a complex, eight-dimensional mathematical pattern with 248 points. He noticed that some of the equations describing its structure matched his own. "The moment this happened my brain exploded with the implications and the beauty of the thing," says Lisi. "I thought: 'Holy crap, that's it!'"

    What Lisi had realised was that if he could find a way to place the various elementary particles and forces on E8's 248 points, it might explain, for example, how the forces make particles decay, as seen in particle accelerators.

    Lisi is not the first person to associate particles with the points of symmetric patterns. In the 1950s, Murray Gell-Mann and colleagues correctly predicted the existence of the "omega-minus" particle after mapping known particles onto the points of a symmetrical mathematical structure called SU(3). This exposed a blank slot, where the new particle fitted.

    Before tackling the daunting E8, Lisi examined a smaller cousin, a hexagonal pattern called G2, to see if it would explain how the strong nuclear force works. According to the standard model, forces are carried by particles: for example, the strong force is carried by gluons. Every quark has a quantum property called its "colour charge" - red, green or blue - which denotes how the quarks are affected by gluons. Lisi labelled points on G2 with quarks and anti-quarks of each colour, and with various gluons, and found that he could reproduce the way that quarks are known to change colour when they interact with gluons, using nothing more than high-school geometry (see Graphic).

    Turning to the geometry of the next simplest pattern in the family, Lisi found he was able to explain the interactions between neutrinos and electrons by using the star-like F4. The standard model already successfully describes the electroweak force, uniting the electromagnetic and the weak forces. Lisi added gravity into the mix by including two force-carrying particles called "e-phi" and "omega", to the F4 diagram - creating a "gravi-electroweak" force.

    Finally, he filled in most of the 248 points of the E8 pattern, using various "identities" of the 40 known particles and forces. For example, some particles can have quantum spin values that are either up or down, and each of these identities would sit on a different point. He filled the remaining 20 gaps with notional particles, for example those that some physicists predict to be associated with gravity.

    With the points on the E8 pattern occupied, he could rotate it using computer simulations and so project it down in various ways to two dimensions. By rotating it a certain way, he found that he could recreate the earlier basic patterns describing the quark-gluon relationship and his gravi-electroweak force.

    As he rotated the shape further, he found even more intriguing patterns. For example, in one configuration, you can see the gravi-electroweak interaction pattern surrounded by quarks and anti-quarks congregated into their individually "coloured" groups (visit www.newscientist.com/article/dn12891 to watch an animation of the pattern's rotation). What's more, these quarks cluster into families of three, with almost identical properties but different masses. Physicists have long puzzled over why elementary particles appear to belong to such families, but this arises naturally from the geometry of E8, he says.

    So far, all the interactions predicted by the complex geometrical relationships inside E8 match with observations in the real world. "As far as I have been able to tell, it's a perfect match of tens of thousands of interactions," says Lisi. "How cool is that?"

    Lisi is specially pleased that his model is "without strings, extra space-time dimensions or other weird inventions that there's no evidence for", which bedevil string theory. The maths is simpler, too, which he says makes it even more compelling. Compared with string theory, "this uses baby mathematics," he says.

    Other physicists are impressed. "Some incredibly beautiful stuff falls out of Lisi's theory," says David Ritz Finkelstein at the Georgia Institute of Technology in Atlanta. "I think that this must be more than coincidence and he really is touching on something profound."

    The question of why our universe should be controlled by the E8 structure is not one that Lisi tackles. "I think the universe is pure geometry - basically, a beautiful shape twisting around and dancing over space-time," says Lisi. "Since E8 is perhaps the most beautiful structure in mathematics, it is very satisfying that nature appears to have chosen this geometry." Finkelstein, however, plans to investigate whether space-time could be described as a quilt woven together from E8 patches.

    Sabine Hossenfelder, also at PI, argues that Lisi's idea could be complementary to string theory, rather than a radical alternative. She points out that string theorists already use E8 to describe a pattern of extra-dimensional space called the Calabi-Yau manifold, which they propose exists alongside the three dimensions that we see. "Is this a coincidence?" she asks.

    The crucial test of Lisi's work will come only when he has made testable predictions. Lisi himself accepts this, saying that although his theory is beautiful to him, "nature may disagree". To fill E8 entirely will require more than 20 new particles not envisaged by the standard model. Lisi is now calculating the masses that these particles should have, in the hope that they may be spotted when the Large Hadron Collider - being built at CERN, near Geneva in Switzerland - starts up next year.

    "This is an all-or-nothing kind of theory - it's either going to be exactly right, or spectacularly wrong," says Lisi. "I'm the first to admit this is a long shot. But it ain't over till the LHC sings."

    Source

    How nice we have a theory that we can test soon.
    As a teenager, I was taken to various houses and flats above takeaways in the north of England, to be beaten, tortured and raped over 100 times. I was called a “white slag” and “white ****” as they beat me.

    -Ella Hill

  2. #2

    Default Re: Dude, I have this rad theory in my GUT

    You know. This is all I've been hearing about lately. Its one of those theories thats either completely wrong, or completely right. Its a true all or nothing approach, which is kind of rare to see. IMO, the most interesting thing about it is that it isn't a real quantum theory.
    Last edited by David Deas; November 18, 2007 at 09:24 AM.
    Sponsored by the Last Roman

  3. #3

    Default Re: Dude, I have this rad theory in my GUT

    its great in the age of multi billion dollar group research that an individual has come up with something that has everybody so interested, i can't wait to see how this pans out.
    Sired by Niccolo Machiavelli
    Adopted by Ferrets54
    Father of secret basement children Boeing and Shyam Popat

  4. #4

    Default Re: Dude, I have this rad theory in my GUT

    Well. My advice is to be *very* skeptical. Don't count on this theory being correct. Bank on it being wrong because traditionally group theories *are* wrong.
    Sponsored by the Last Roman

  5. #5
    Simetrical's Avatar Former Chief Technician
    Patrician

    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    θ = π/0.6293, φ = π/1.293, ρ = 6,360 km
    Posts
    20,154

    Default Re: Dude, I have this rad theory in my GUT

    Quote Originally Posted by David Deas View Post
    Well. My advice is to be *very* skeptical. Don't count on this theory being correct. Bank on it being wrong because traditionally group theories *are* wrong.
    Now, now, don't be silly. Every physical theory is based on groups. After all, the real numbers are a group under addition, and (if you remove zero) under multiplication too!

    But as you say, at least they've been "wrong", rather than "not even wrong". That's a good thing, in theoretical physics. And anyway, I would have to say that traditionally everything is wrong, as far as GUTs go. So I don't know where the prejudice against group theory-based explanations comes from.
    MediaWiki developer, TWC Chief Technician
    NetHack player (nao info)


    Risen from Prey

  6. #6

    Default Re: Dude, I have this rad theory in my GUT

    Quote Originally Posted by Simetrical View Post
    Now, now, don't be silly. Every physical theory is based on groups. After all, the real numbers are a group under addition, and (if you remove zero) under multiplication too!

    But as you say, at least they've been "wrong", rather than "not even wrong". That's a good thing, in theoretical physics. And anyway, I would have to say that traditionally everything is wrong, as far as GUTs go. So I don't know where the prejudice against group theory-based explanations comes from.
    Well. This is whats called a grand unified model construction. Usually what they do is shoehorn the Standard Model into a pretty symmetrical form and hope they can come up with gravity somewhere in the symmetry. This guy is basically doing the same sort of thing.

    So, for example, he's essentially saying that you have a situation where a particle is just a complex symmetrical shape with so many dimensions, and depending on which way you rotate your shape, thats what particle you get. Electrons. Protons. All the same particle construct. Just rotated differently so you see the 'Electron side' or the 'Proton side' of the shape.

    Its not the first time its been done. These group theories all have one fatal thing in common; they predict new particles, which is where they always end up ultimately failing. The Surfer dude's theory does the same exact thing. The only real difference is the incredible number of dimensions that this guy is using. It allows him to generously pack the Standard Model and gravity under one spacious roof so that he can try and find some sort of a connection somewhere in the symmetry.

    I don't know. Its one of those things where people imagine that the answer must be in mathematical mysticism, or pretty shapes and equations that have all these beautiful coincidences. So thats where they look. And thats all well and good. I mean, like I said. Surfer dude might be on to something. But I think I'll bank on this probably not being correct.

    I did enjoy how they presented the guy as the anti-scholar, or as some sort of anti-establishment figure. The guy is loaded with Phd's. But the headlines all read, "Surfer stumps physicists with the answer to the Universe!"
    Last edited by David Deas; November 27, 2007 at 06:50 PM.
    Sponsored by the Last Roman

  7. #7
    Simetrical's Avatar Former Chief Technician
    Patrician

    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    θ = π/0.6293, φ = π/1.293, ρ = 6,360 km
    Posts
    20,154

    Default Re: Dude, I have this rad theory in my GUT

    He holds no academic job and doesn't want to, which makes him quite exceptional as a theoretical physicist. As for the theory, needless to say, any unifying theory should be viewed skeptically, regardless of its basis, because all the tested ones to date have been wrong. Looking for mathematical symmetries is the only reasonable way forward: that's what theoretical physics always does, pretty much (okay, it also sometimes postulates principles instead).
    MediaWiki developer, TWC Chief Technician
    NetHack player (nao info)


    Risen from Prey

  8. #8

    Default Re: Dude, I have this rad theory in my GUT

    this is science, we always have to be very skeptical. it's the name of the game
    Sired by Niccolo Machiavelli
    Adopted by Ferrets54
    Father of secret basement children Boeing and Shyam Popat

  9. #9

    Default Re: Dude, I have this rad theory in my GUT

    The good thing is that its falsifiable. Thats a huge plus.

    *is clapping*

    Now I know you're probably thinking - 'Duh!!' - thats suppose to be pretty standard in science. But some things, such as String Theory, are not falsifiable. String Theory can accept the outcome of just about any future experiment.
    Last edited by David Deas; November 18, 2007 at 10:09 AM.
    Sponsored by the Last Roman

  10. #10

    Default Re: Dude, I have this rad theory in my GUT

    There is a Lie algebra En for every integer n≥3, which is infinite dimensional if n is greater than 8.
    Very reminiscent of Murray Gell-Mann. There's been quite a few theories based on models such as this, but the first one using E8, AFAIK. See he still has a few 'notional' holes...

  11. #11

    Default Re: Dude, I have this rad theory in my GUT

    Buckminster Fuller would have loved this kind of approach too. Polyhedra and closest packing were right up his ballpark.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buckminster_Fuller

    Wouldn't be surprised if his work would make a come-back if this approach pans out.

    At least if someone is willing to translate it to 'normal' modern-day English without the idiosyncracies, that is. It's not exactly easy reading, but the man's a clear genius, and pretty unique.

  12. #12
    Simetrical's Avatar Former Chief Technician
    Patrician

    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    θ = π/0.6293, φ = π/1.293, ρ = 6,360 km
    Posts
    20,154

    Default Re: Dude, I have this rad theory in my GUT

    What does this have to do with polyhedra or closest packing?
    MediaWiki developer, TWC Chief Technician
    NetHack player (nao info)


    Risen from Prey

  13. #13

    Default Re: Dude, I have this rad theory in my GUT

    Clifford algebra.

  14. #14
    Simetrical's Avatar Former Chief Technician
    Patrician

    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    θ = π/0.6293, φ = π/1.293, ρ = 6,360 km
    Posts
    20,154

    Default Re: Dude, I have this rad theory in my GUT

    I don't think Lie algebra, or the proposed theory at all, has anything to do with Clifford algebra?
    MediaWiki developer, TWC Chief Technician
    NetHack player (nao info)


    Risen from Prey

  15. #15

    Default Re: Dude, I have this rad theory in my GUT

    Unless they're discussing something entirely different, it would seem they do:

    First, note that the 240 E8 root vectors form the Witting polytope of 8-dim close-packing (so E8 is the maximum size for rank-8 Lie groups) corresponding to 240 of the 248 generators of E8, with the other 8 forming a Cartan subalgebra of E8.


    http://www.valdostamuseum.org/hamsmith/E6E7E8clif.html

  16. #16
    Simetrical's Avatar Former Chief Technician
    Patrician

    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    θ = π/0.6293, φ = π/1.293, ρ = 6,360 km
    Posts
    20,154

    Default Re: Dude, I have this rad theory in my GUT

    Hmm, you're right. Never mind, I don't know much of anything about this kind of thing. I only took an introductory modern algebra course this term.
    MediaWiki developer, TWC Chief Technician
    NetHack player (nao info)


    Risen from Prey

  17. #17

    Default Re: Dude, I have this rad theory in my GUT

    Some more skeptical than others. I don't automatically have it imagined that the GUT should be just one pretty flowing geometry either. I think it could be a mess, just like the Standard Model.
    Last edited by David Deas; November 28, 2007 at 07:07 AM.
    Sponsored by the Last Roman

  18. #18
    Ummon's Avatar Indefinitely Banned
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    19,146

    Default Re: Dude, I have this rad theory in my GUT

    Now, I have been reading about Lie groups and stuff lately. Seems to me they might have interesting applications elsewhere as well.

    I have started a mathematics course but somehow I am always catching up with intuitions, and they run faster than my ability to study.

    It is not like this theory is non-elegant, anyway, I might suggest... Plato would have concurred.
    Last edited by Ummon; November 30, 2007 at 05:20 AM.

  19. #19
    Simetrical's Avatar Former Chief Technician
    Patrician

    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    θ = π/0.6293, φ = π/1.293, ρ = 6,360 km
    Posts
    20,154

    Default Re: Dude, I have this rad theory in my GUT

    Quote Originally Posted by Ummon View Post
    I have started a mathematics course but somehow I am always catching up with intuitions, and they run faster than my ability to study.
    Well, you know what they say: the axiom of choice is clearly true, the well-ordering principle is clearly false, and who can say about Zorn's lemma?
    MediaWiki developer, TWC Chief Technician
    NetHack player (nao info)


    Risen from Prey

  20. #20
    Ummon's Avatar Indefinitely Banned
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    19,146

    Default Re: Dude, I have this rad theory in my GUT

    I surely don't know what they say, since I've been dabbling into these matters for mere weeks, but on the other hand if white is white, it is not black.

    Fooling poor old Ummons is a nasty thing to try even for a mathematician. :wink:

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •