Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 27

Thread: Custom Formations

Hybrid View

Previous Post Previous Post   Next Post Next Post
  1. #1
    Athkara's Avatar Tiro
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Vyakkirna, capitol of Aval Ravath
    Posts
    281

    Default Custom Formations

    I'm just wondering what custom formations other players have used or developed, so I decided to start this thread. If you would like, just post some screens and a description of how your formation works.

    I'll start with a few of my own:

    Roman Serrated Formation:



    This is my standard formation I use with the roman legions. Since my infantry is so powerful, I can leave gaps in the line for my archers. When the enemy gets into pilum range, I pull the archers back and laugh as the enemy tries to chase them through my lines.

    The gaps are what make the formation so fun. If the enemy try to break through the gaps, their units will atoumatically be surrounded on two sides. there isn't really a reserve ecxept my general and one unit behind him. But since my line is spaced out, it's very long. This means that the enemy can only attack sections of it and not the whole line at once. So I can move free units to help surround the enemy.

    Goose Formation:



    This is my basic formation, in essence it's a giant V. It works with essentially any infantry, and can be used for attack or defense. When defending, the strong wings mean I don't have to worry about being flanked, since I can detatch one of the rear infantry units to protect my flank. If the enemy attacks my center, it's suicide since they'll already be half surrounded by the time they engage my center.

    Usually the AI attacks my wings first and holds back on my center. This works great since I can then move my center up to help my wings surround the enemy flanks or just hold the line until my wings are free to turn in and surround the enemy center.

    For attack, I usually try to use my wings to pin the enemy's flanks, and then punch with my center to try and split their army in two.

    Spear Formation:



    This is just a giant wedge, infantry on the outside surrounding my archers, with my cavalry concentrated into one group at my rear. I haven't really used it much so I can't say as to its effectiveness. Obviously, the goal is to punch straight through the enemy's center and the fan out.

    Eight Arrays Formation:



    with Legio XV:


    (Never knew the Seleucids had flying Cataphracts )

    This is my addoption of the classic Chinese eight arrays formation. These screens are from my Three Kingdoms mod, but I'll get some with Roman legions later (pilum make this formation insanely hard to attack) I found a Japanese site with charts of many ancient Chiense formations as well as descriptions: http://www.geocities.co.jp/Bookend-O...u/mokuroku.htm

    The eight pics in the bottom box are the eight evolutions of the eight arrays formation; I was particularly interested in the formation so I chose to try and make this version of it and see if and how it could actually work. Unfortunately for me the descriptions are in anceint Chinese, so I can't understand them. Thus I pretty much improvised using this chart as a base.



    After a little testing, I found that this formation works great defesively, but has essentialy no offensive capability unless you totaly restucture it into some other formation. The way I stuctured it, as you can see, I have four heavy infantry units arranged in front, where they from a bowl and one is in front of the bowl. I place my general right behhind the bowl, so he can help where the fighting gets most intense. In the center I just dump all my archers, then I stretch out an infantry unit on either side of the archers, leaving a channel for my cavalry. I place the cavalry, two in each channel, the forward ones facing towards the front, and the rear ones facing towards the back. Then I similarly have a second bowl for my rear. Here the two wings of the bowl face the front, and the two inside units face the rear.

    The idea of this formation is that it is impossible to flank and can deal with a concentrated attack from any direction. This makes it good for defending against mukltiple armies. Also, though it may not look it, it's pretty mobile; meaning you can move to the best terrain while in formation, and stop an be ready for an attack quickly.

    The way I use the formation is, once I've manouvered to the best spot, I just wait for the enemy to attack. The most important part is to keep rotating the formation to face the enemy's center. When the enemy atacks, sometimes the computer likes to send out its cavalry to try and flank you. But with this formation, the cavalry can't find any opening, so usually they just ride around you while your archers kill them. If t he cavalry do charge one of my flanks, I just have my cavalry on the side charge out from the two openings on the side and engage.

    At any rate, when the enemy engages my front, the computer can only attack them with its center troops since my formation is so narrow. this leaves the AI's flanks either trying to fold down and stretch themselves to encircle you or they all try to rush at you forward bowl of men from evey angle. This is the critical moment. I have my cavaly charge forward to support both wings of the forward bowl, so the enemy can't surround them. If the one unit infront of my bowl is getting overwhelmed, I send up the unit behind it to help; and usually the AI general attacks my bowl, so I have my general go up to help too.

    By this time, my flanks should be secure, so I can have the rear bowl and the the two units on my sides for up into two lines, one on the left and one on the right, as you can see on the last pic, and then sweep up to try and surround the enemy. Usually by this point some of the enemy units start to rout and then before I know it, they're all running.

    I'm sure that was long, but I hope my explination isn't totally confusing.

    And just for the hell of it, my All Cavalry Army:



    Essentially two giant wedges of cavalry, with heavy cavalry on the inside edges and horse archers on the outside. All you need to do is split in two groups and ride alternate rings around the enemy while raining death down from above. the only times I take any real casualties is when the enemy has some decent cavalry.:tooth:
    Last edited by Athkara; November 16, 2007 at 03:28 AM. Reason: added pics for eight arrays w/ Legio XV
    260 BC: Asia ton Barbaron - submod for EB ------- Yuezhi/Wusun historian and mapper
    Asia ton Barbaron Map Preview I
    Asia ton Barbaron Map Preview II

  2. #2
    frankus's Avatar Civis
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Nederland
    Posts
    176

    Default Re: Custom Formations

    what is the advantage of creating 'holes' in your battlelines? like in the 4th screen of Roman Serrated Formation..
    greetz

  3. #3
    Scipio praeditus's Avatar Decanus
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Freistaat Bayern
    Posts
    519

    Default Re: Custom Formations

    Quote Originally Posted by frankus View Post
    what is the advantage of creating 'holes' in your battlelines? like in the 4th screen of Roman Serrated Formation..
    greetz
    The advantages are many, that is why I use it most of the time.
    Most importantly it keeps the line from being pinned down entirely by the enemy's first wave, thus allowing the second rank to outflank the first wave, back up the first rank or hold the second wave.
    It also allows for switching the ranks quickly when the front rank is out of ammo, and gives the second rank a somewhat clear line of fire for when things are desperate.
    Another bonus is that archers can hit only one unit at a time.
    Due to the holes the formation is far more flexible then two solid ranks (easier to reform without incurring chaos), and its length is more manageble then a single line.
    The holes are also a good position to deploy skirmishers, it allows them to fire away in relative safety and untill the last moment.
    Also, it works well with the first rank in testudo formation, forcing ranged units to get closer, and allowing the second rank to move up in case infantry apraoches.
    No doubt the list could be far longer, my memory is failing me though.
    Perhaps someone else has more, I would sure like to know what else it can do.:hmmm:

  4. #4
    Athkara's Avatar Tiro
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Vyakkirna, capitol of Aval Ravath
    Posts
    281

    Default Re: Custom Formations

    Glad you like my formations, I'd love to help implementing these formations for the AI, since I've never got the chance to play against them. But right now, I know about nothing as far as coding formations, though I am trying to learn. If I manage to make any progress I'll be sure to let your team know. But as far as the eight arrays is concerned, I can't see the AI ever being able to use it affectively, except as a means of grouping its troops into a blob just asking to be surrounded.

    As far as getting the formations set up, I just place all the units into formation before battle, then after I start battle, I group them into one group and the formations holds fine.
    260 BC: Asia ton Barbaron - submod for EB ------- Yuezhi/Wusun historian and mapper
    Asia ton Barbaron Map Preview I
    Asia ton Barbaron Map Preview II

  5. #5

    Default Re: Custom Formations

    I like the eight wings formation. Ive had RTW for about 8 months now and the origanal version was fun but it wasnt unique. fortunatley thats what RS mod is for. I think that would be awesome to have that implemented.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Custom Formations

    Quote Originally Posted by frankus View Post
    what is the advantage of creating 'holes' in your battlelines? like in the 4th screen of Roman Serrated Formation..
    greetz
    Accutaly "holes"(weak spots) in the center battle lines is what the Carthaginians used at the battle of Cannae. The 50,000 man Roman army charged the weak carthage center line and it broke then the convex formation of Hannibals infantry and cavalry turned to concave and the Romans were trapped and massacred. This is the only known battle in the world where the defeated army never had any survivors. No romans escaped. In my personal opinion I always hated the Carthaginians. If Hannibal would have listened to his captain Maharbal Rome probably would have been captured and the known world today would be a hell of a lot different. "You know how to gain a victory but you do not know how to use it". That is what Maharbal said to Hannibal after Hannibal turned down the idea of attacking Rome.
    Last edited by spaghetti-oh; November 16, 2007 at 08:27 PM.

  7. #7
    pseudocaesar's Avatar Campidoctor
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    1,943

    Default Re: Custom Formations

    Quote Originally Posted by spaghetti-oh View Post
    Accutaly "holes"(weak spots) in the center battle lines is what the Carthaginians used at the battle of Cannae. The 50,000 man Roman army charged the weak carthage center line and it broke then the convex formation of Hannibals infantry and cavalry turned to concave and the Romans were trapped and massacred. This is the only known battle in the world where the defeated army never had any survivors. No romans escaped. In my personal opinion I always hated the Carthaginians. If Hannibal would have listened to his captain Maharbal Rome probably would have been captured and the known world today would be a hell of a lot different. "You know how to gain a victory but you do not know how to use it". That is what Maharbal said to Hannibal after Hannibal turned down the idea of attacking Rome.
    Ahh thats wrong, several thousand romans actually cut through the Carthaginian centre and escaped to Canusium.

    Proud Roma Surrectum Team member.
    Local Moderator for Roma Surrectum forums. PM if you need help there.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Custom Formations

    Quote Originally Posted by pseudocaesar View Post
    Ahh thats wrong, several thousand romans actually cut through the Carthaginian centre and escaped to Canusium.
    I know there was a battle where no Romans escaped and Hannibal surrounded the army. Care to enlighten me? I thought it was Cannae but maybe it was trebia.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Custom Formations

    in every case, some romans managed to escape. at cannae, about 10000 made it. at trebia, i think 5000. though to be honest, it didn't make much difference, as the armies in both cases were totally destroyed as an effective fighting force.
    'Ecce, Roma Surrectum!' Beta Tester and Historian
    Under the proud patronage of MarcusTullius

  10. #10
    dvk901's Avatar Consummatum est
    Patrician

    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    20,984

    Default Re: Custom Formations

    How do you do this and how do you implement them in a battle? You have peeked my interest.

    Creator of: "Ecce, Roma Surrectum....Behold, Rome Arises!"
    R.I.P. My Beloved Father

  11. #11

    Default Re: Custom Formations

    They look amazing but do they work?
    My formations normally use the system of lines

    Line1- Fire at will
    Line 2- Fire when line 1 is suitably engaged
    Line 3 (reserve)

    Flanks with cavalry
    Archers start at the front (fire at will) and then move back behind 2nd line but fire at will is removed

    I wish I was at home so i could show some caps
    Maybe in 2 weeks when i get back

    **RS Dev Team***Reciprocal Repper!* RIP Calvin- you will be missed

  12. #12

    Default Re: Custom Formations

    We'd certainly be interested in anyone who was willing to work on both AI and player formations


    Under patronage of Spirit of Rob; Patron of Century X, Pacco, Cherryfunk, Leif Erikson.

  13. #13
    ♔Jean-Luc Picard♔'s Avatar Domesticus
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    North Carolina, USA
    Posts
    2,181

    Default Re: Custom Formations

    for romans, 1 big line of skirmishers, 1 big line of infantry, cavalry on the flanks. the skirmishers skirmish, the infantry infantrates and cavalry runs in funny little circles because i willed it.
    for greeks, 1 big line of archers, 1 big phalanx line
    archers do their thing until the enemy gets too close and runs behind the phalanx who kills off the survivors.
    i almost never lose many more than 100 men.

    Skan

    It is my great honour to have my poem Farmer in the Scriptorium here.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Custom Formations

    Quote Originally Posted by Athkara View Post
    Unfortunately for me the descriptions are in anceint Chinese, so I can't understand them. Thus I pretty much improvised using this chart as a base.


    Translation:
    Li Zhu (or at least I think that's what it is, I haven't seen that character before) acting Zhu Geliang's land battle map.

    The description on the side seems more along the lines of what went down in the Romance of the Three Kingdoms

    but this is how the formation is suppose to work

    The first line is suppose to charge forth while the two supporting "wings" are facing outward (basically, each wing is looking toward the line away from YOUR army). The inner square is suppose to remain still, absolutely still and not budge. Let your enemies pursue your charging line and then trap them.

    Crusades
    Historical fiction - Fifty Tales from Rome


    Can YOU dance like the Cookie Man?
    Improbe amor quid non mortalia pectora cogis? - The Aeneid
    I run an Asteroid mining website. Visit it before James Cameron takes it from me.

  15. #15
    Scipio praeditus's Avatar Decanus
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Freistaat Bayern
    Posts
    519

    Default Re: Custom Formations

    I thought I'd repost this very succesfully implemented formation, because I never got any kudo's for it and it is compareable to the Eight Arrays formation.
    I can remember my greatest battle like it was yesterday:
    It took place in northern Italy during summer, one of my standard Republikan II legions was ambushed by a full stack of free people outnumbering me by about a third.
    We where caught in marching line, on a road with stretched forrested hills on both sides, much like a small valley.
    The enemy had seperated their forces into two lines deployed on top of those hills and within bowrange, although both armies had only javelins.
    On the fly I deployed my men in two lines facing the enemy lines as quick as possible, my shirmishers ended up in the middle with the princeps, hastatii and triarii on the flanks.
    As the enemy began its full on charge, I was still not sure what to do.
    But when they had closed about halfway with my lines I saw a chance, I ordered my skirmishers and princeps to shift the center to the flanks, and my hastatii to rotate 45 degrees.
    In effect there now where four line formations with a massive hole in the middle:
    ---------------

    -------\-----/---
    --C------G------C
    -------/-----\---

    ---------------
    (White stripes are for spacing)
    As the enemy came within pila range of my hastatii I hoped that they would continue their charge towards the hole in the center, I had placed my general there as a lure and it worked, after my general retreated they filled up the space in between my hastatii.
    As the last javelins/pila where thrown by the skirmishers and princeps, the battle suddenly looked totaly different, after a charge by all my infantry and repeated cavalry charges there was no more enemy army.
    In the end after average healing, I was left with less then five percent losses, a heroic victory and a fully functioning legion that went on to fight less notable battles.
    I was shocked at my luck, I had half unintentionally turned the ambush around and took the head of every last Veneti b@$%@&d.
    I've had some heroic battles with my Imperials as wel, but none as notable as this one, as I take care to have the advantage (with spies and such).
    And I keep switching between 1 and 0 turn recruitment, so there are relatively few full stacks on the map compared to some of the insanity I've seen around here.
    I never bother about screenshots by the way so, sorryz.
    The only difference is that the part that is the center in the Eight Arrays formation has vacated that area mere moments ago to make space for the enemy.

    Oh and by the way the serrated formation as referenced to in my previous post should look somewhat like this (only the legion part):

    ____________
    ___________

    So, evenly spaced but with the lines a lot closer together.
    In hindsight the formation as depicted by Athkara looks and works a bit differently, as he/she mentions.

    EDIT:thnx.
    Last edited by Scipio praeditus; November 16, 2007 at 09:09 AM.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Custom Formations

    Nice formation ideas...I should really figure out some different ones than the default and variations thereof...though I don't like using my general as bait as I see that as taking advantage of the AI...

    Also, I learned this the other day, if you select the color 'Wheat' (second color in bottom row), it matches the forum background color!

  17. #17

    Default Re: Custom Formations

    Oh so that is what it looks like? Nice!
    Kudos for the formations, will try some out in a bit. Predicting a lot of fun!
    Loyal fan of Roma Surrectum!
    "Ave Caesar, morituri te salutant!"

    Love 2 Rep ppl!
    RS TEAM IS KING!!!

    Nam homo proponit, sed Daus disponit.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Custom Formations

    It would be nice to allow cohorts to form wedge, to "punch" through enemy lines and separate their wings. I saw a diagram where the battle line was formed, but a cohort in the center in front of the line was formed into a wedge. thus when the formations collided, you could punch right through their center, break the enemy up. it might work for the pre-testudo units, as I never uses loose formation with my cohorts anyways.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Custom Formations

    would a custom formation (like double line, column etc) that's in the shape of a wedge work?
    'Ecce, Roma Surrectum!' Beta Tester and Historian
    Under the proud patronage of MarcusTullius

  20. #20
    Athkara's Avatar Tiro
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Vyakkirna, capitol of Aval Ravath
    Posts
    281

    Default Re: Custom Formations

    Yeah, but I think Burninator was refering to this pic:



    As you can see, in the first formation, the center cohort is in a wedge formation like cavalry can form in RTW. Theoretically, if you could have infantry units form little wedges like cavalry in RTW, you could break through the enemy lines a lot quicker than just using a wedge shape made up of multiple units. But it just can't be implemented in the game, so, meh...


    Edit:

    After some Google searching, I found this:
    http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic.php?p=15643

    It's an interesting discussion on the way the Romans used wedge formations with infantry; the site too is a great find.
    Last edited by Athkara; November 22, 2007 at 03:21 AM.
    260 BC: Asia ton Barbaron - submod for EB ------- Yuezhi/Wusun historian and mapper
    Asia ton Barbaron Map Preview I
    Asia ton Barbaron Map Preview II

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •