Normans and England

[Hookah Smoking Caterpiller]

Ive always wondered why the English do not have Norman Knights while the Sicilian Normans do.. despite the English owning Normandy at the beginning of the game...

IMO, the English first tear Knights/Dismounted Knights should be those of the Norman verity, to reflect the fact that William the Conqueror replaced the Anglo-Saxon nobility (i.e. the Knightly classes) with Norman ones.

Now I know this was present in Vanilla but since this mod peruses historical accuracy i feel that the English should gain this unit but since i cannot mod AT ALL i have never fixed this 'problem' (well its annoying to me).

Thanks for reading.. sorry if i seem somewhat pedantic..

[King Kong]

Ive always wondered why the English do not have Norman Knights while the Sicilian Normans do.. despite the English owning Normandy at the beginning of the game...

IMO, the English first tear Knights/Dismounted Knights should be those of the Norman verity, to reflect the fact that William the Conqueror replaced the Anglo-Saxon nobility (i.e. the Knightly classes) with Norman ones.

Now I know this was present in Vanilla but since this mod peruses historical accuracy i feel that the English should gain this unit but since i cannot mod AT ALL i have never fixed this 'problem' (well its annoying to me).

Thanks for reading.. sorry if i seem somewhat pedantic..

Hi Modern Life is Rubbish,

Good question... I wondering the same actually. :hmmm:
However, I have found no evidence for those Norman Knights in English armies.
If anyone can confirm that they had them, I would include them probably...

[Samuel Adams]

Hi Modern Life is Rubbish,

Good question... I wondering the same actually. :hmmm:
However, I have found no evidence for those Norman Knights in English armies.
If anyone can confirm that they had them, I would include them probably...

Alas KK,

King Richard the Lionhearted was in fact a Norman Knight in all but name. Probably the most major difference was William the Conqueror, a hundred years prior, wanted to make himself as "English" as possible quite probably to quell any possible revolts as well as to cement himself in his claim as heir to the English Throne. So official documents may not state it, but House Carls (in game Huscarls) were Saxon men at arms, almost like landless knights really, and the Knights of England after the Normans invaded were mostly Norman save a few Saxon Knights or lords that were open to the Norman King.

So my initial reaction would be that the difference was that the Sicilians were proud to be "Norman" hence it is mentioned, and the Normans in England were trying to become "English," hence it is not.

A die hard English historian may have more light to shed than I though. But perhaps just (to OP) edit the essential files to give England Norman Knights. Look over the help in modding part of the forums to figure out how to do it.

[schulthies]

KK I found this i'm sure you have seen it but I dunno...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_I_of_England

Norman Invasion

The first would-be attacker was Tostig Godwinson, Harold's brother, but he was successfully defeated by Edwin, Earl of Mercia at a battle on the south bank of the Humber.
Meanwhile, William submitted his claim to the English throne to Pope Alexander II, who sent him a consecrated banner in support. Then, William organized a council of war, at Lillebonne and openly began assembling an army in Normandy, consisting of his own army, French mercenaries, and numerous foreign knights who expected plunder or English land. To each man, William promised both lands and titles of nobility, for after their victory. Despite gaining the support from many knights and gathering a considerable army (600 ships and 7000 men) at Saint-Valery-sur-Somme, due to the heavy militia presence on the south coast of England and the fleet of ships guarding the English Channel, it looked as if he might fare little better than Tostig.[7]

You would kind of assume there were Norman Knights based off of the bolded info. However you are correct.. there is no flat out statement.

[Inhuman One]

Maybe the english huscarls could be made available to the english, they are available as mercenaries but I think it would make sense to have them in the roster.

I also have another suggestion, maybe a new knight unit could be created if there would be space for it, that is a mixture of a feudal knight and a norman knight. They could wear heavy chain mail in the style of the feudal knight, but with the helmets of the norman knights, the ones that seem suitable at least. Their chainmail could remain unclothed like that of the mailed knights without their upgrade.
This knight unit could then be used by more than one faction so that some have feudal knights and others have this new knight unit.

[Hookah Smoking Caterpiller]

Once England had been conquered the Normans faced many challenges in maintaining control. The Anglo-Norman speaking Normans were in very small numbers compared to the native English population. Historians estimate their number at 5,000 armoured knights. [5] New Norman lords constructed a variety of forts and castles (such as the motte-and-bailey) to provide a stronghold against a popular revolt (or increasingly rare Viking attacks) and to dominate the nearby town and countryside. Any remaining English lords who refused to acknowledge William's accession to the throne or who revolted were stripped of titles and lands, which were then re-distributed to Norman favorites of William. If an English lord died without issue the Normans would always choose a successor from Normandy. In this way the Normans displaced the native aristocracy and took control of the top ranks of power.

from wiki

I feel that this shows the establishment of the Norman Aristocracy as the Knight Class of Feudal society, and oddly in contrast to Horton's post the wiki states that the Normans didn't really try to be 'English' and threw out most of the Anglo-Saxon nobles (who turned up in Byzantium as the Varangian Guard) and even William the Conqueror only stayed in England for 4 months.

[Caesar Clivus]

There is also debate as to how different the Anglo-saxons and the Normans actually were at the time of William the Conquerer's invasion. Some scholars argue that the constant interaction between Normandy and the Anglo-saxon nobility erased a lot of distinctions between the two.

I think what Horton was saying is true though, that the Normans in sicily were very distinctly Norman, much more than the Normans in England after Hastings. I'll have to get my book on the Normans out of the bookshelf now.

[Sir Nicholas Altman]

Here you need to think about the ancestors of Angles, Saxons and Normans. Angles and Saxons were germanic tribes who at the dusk of thr Roman empire conquered England and subdjued celtic romanized Britons (Brito romans) and developed new specific English culture. Then 3rd generation of french born Normans (also germanic origin tribe from Norway) invades bringing their own sepcific culture. So you have Norman who are germanic conquering Angles and Saxon how are germanic also. So no great origin difference. Norman were descendents of Vikings who settled in France cause the French king asked to stop attacking and pillaging in France.

But Normans in Italy were lords of native Italians who had no origin contact with germanic tribes. North of them were Lombards who intergrated in Italian culture. So thats why Sicilian Normans had to differ them selfs alot from Italians and probably the were phisicly alot different. Taller, fair skin, blue eyes while Normans and Saxons in England probaly had no phisical difference.

[Hookah Smoking Caterpiller]

Here you need to think about the ancestors of Angles, Saxons and Normans. Angles and Saxons were germanic tribes who at the dusk of thr Roman empire conquered England and subdjued celtic romanized Britons (Brito romans) and developed new specific English culture. Then 3rd generation of french born Normans (also germanic origin tribe from Norway) invades bringing their own sepcific culture. So you have Norman who are germanic conquering Angles and Saxon how are germanic also. So no great origin difference. Norman were descendents of Vikings who settled in France cause the French king asked to stop attacking and pillaging in France.

But Normans in Italy were lords of native Italians who had no origin contact with germanic tribes. North of them were Lombards who intergrated in Italian culture. So thats why Sicilian Normans had to differ them selfs alot from Italians and probably the were phisicly alot different. Taller, fair skin, blue eyes while Normans and Saxons in England probaly had no phisical difference.

hmmm so by being more clearly identifiable from the 'natives' the Italian Normans would have retained there differences for longer?

I believe that is what you mean?

[Firebat11]

I'd like to point out that this is all supposition until I get clear references. Normans in Sicily were largely the same as those from Normandy since they traveled from Normandy to Sicily to fight the Muslim Emirates. Afterwards they stayed and formed their own Kingdom.

By the way: Wikipedia is NOT a scholarly resource so it doesn't count.

[Hookah Smoking Caterpiller]

I'd like to point out that this is all supposition until I get clear references. Normans in Sicily were largely the same as those from Normandy since they traveled from Normandy to Sicily to fight the Muslim Emirates. Afterwards they stayed and formed their own Kingdom.

By the way: Wikipedia is NOT a scholarly resource so it doesn't count.

I have not been to the Library over since Wednesday, and when I do I shall find some sources to back up my beliefs.

mm the Norman Knight transfer at about 1200 could be done in a kind of Marian reform style, with a scripting thing, maybe prior to this event limited numbers of 'English' troops should be avalibe representing there anger at Norman occupation.

[Inhuman One]

Perhaps the factions with a viking past should have norman knights too instead of feudal knights? Norway and Denmark? Or something similar.

[Caesar Clivus]

Perhaps the factions with a viking past should have norman knights too instead of feudal knights? Norway and Denmark? Or something similar.

Normans and Vikings are different despite the fact that the Normans were originally vikings. Quite soon after been given Normandy, the Normans became quite acculturated into the local Frankish culture, developing their own distinct culture. Giving Norman knights to Norway and Denmark wouldn't really make sense.

[Kyias]

Normans and Vikings are different despite the fact that the Normans were originally vikings. Quite soon after been given Normandy, the Normans became quite acculturated into the local Frankish culture, developing their own distinct culture. Giving Norman knights to Norway and Denmark wouldn't really make sense.

The English nobility, excluding the King, even spoke French until around Edward III when they began to associate themselves as English rather than French nobles.

The King himself spoke French as his primary language for a couple hundred years after William conquered England.

Should england have Norman Knights? I think they should...especially considering that it was William who brought the first major armies based on heavy cav to the island. The Barons of England in that early time were Norman, not English.

Considering this, would it be possible to have England have Norman Knights until around 1200's and then have them eliminated from their roster? It would reflect the power the English had militarily compared to France in that early period.

As always though, playability over accuracy however. If this would put England ahead of everyone else by a large margin, then I'd rather have a balanced map when playing then a historically accurate roster.

[Caesar Clivus]

Considering this, would it be possible to have England have Norman Knights until around 1200's and then have them eliminated from their roster? It would reflect the power the English had militarily compared to France in that early period.

Yes it would. You just need to set up an event to trigger around 1200, and put an event_counter 0 condition on the recruit pool for Norman Knights for England in the export_descr_buildings.txt file...of course you'd also have edit the modeldb file and make new skins.

[Landwalker]

I suspect one of the issues at hand is nomenclature, and that the game is somewhat misleading in this regard. Notice the highly unique appearance of the Sicilian Norman Knights, and compare them to the Normans in the Bayeux Tapestry--they are completely different (the most obvious point of difference is their helmets). What I imagine is the case is that the "Norman Knights" of Normandy and Norman England were just your run of the mill Mailed Knights, whereas the "Norman Knights" of Sicily were a unique brand of cavalry that developed among the Normans after their conquest of Sicily--hence the name to differentiate them from the other knights of the area, but which unfortunately leads to confusion in relation to the other Normans.

I don't actually have anything to back this up other than my own logic-based conjecture, but it's certainly feasible. Yes, the Normans conquered England with knights who were Normans, but I imagine they were not distinct from mailed knights on the continent at the time.

Cheers.

[Inhuman One]

Well I dont put that much faith into appearances since Christian guards, Latinkon, Armenian Cavalry mercenaries, Urban Militia and greek firethrowers use the same armor as the norman knights.

I must say that the Latinkon did get a great reskin that makes them look very different.

I do prefer knights in mail armor over plate armor considering looks. I just dont like some plate armor models. Advanced plate and partial plate are alright, but full plate is just hideous.

[Echad]

So, anyone came to a conclusion, should Normans be in the roster of England or not? And there was no feedback on the idea to include English Huscarls into an English roster, but someone posted half-decent historical evidence...

I just don't like my favourite faction being mostly the same in SS, as it was in vanilla... =\

[Inhuman One]

Maybe the english huscarl would be a good addition to their roster, and then Norman knights could be kept exclusive to Sicily.

[Echad]

Probably... And a reskin of regular Longbowmen, as they look like peasant archers with longer bow and a buckler. Anyone knows where are the texture files for them and what tool shoud I use to convert them to .dds or .tga ?