Where's the logic?

**sherbs** · November 11, 2007, 04:42 PM

I'm gradually learning to cope with the illogical things this game seems to do.
I know not to bother with spies, I know that when I want cavalry to return after a run out into battle, I must point them virtually at right angles to the army to avoid them running into their own stakes. But how logical is it that my archbishop who's just brought an 80% region up to 90% catholic suddenly, for no reason, becomes a heretic?

**Mithrantir** · November 11, 2007, 04:48 PM

More likely a chance issue this is. Also there are traits (like unorthodox for example), that make your priest(s) easier to turn to heretics.

Have you seen his character scroll ever?

**Kawligia** · November 11, 2007, 05:45 PM

Welcome to TW...

Just wait until agent after agent fails when they have a 95% chance of success.

**The Good** · November 11, 2007, 07:21 PM

Sherbs, Sherbs....there are many illogicalities in the Total War Series, unfortunately. Some matters simply do not make sense, but maybe roleplay will help you enjoy the game a little more, and see past some of the illogical moments. For instance, a Cardinal becoming a Heretic? Maybe he realized that the Catholic faith is wrong, and became what is now known as a Protestant? Thats basically how I roleplay things out.

**supekele** · November 11, 2007, 10:08 PM

Remember that heresy isn't labeled as some strange new religion in the TW series, it just represents any faith that is different (so much so that it's used in a derogative way) than Catholic, Muslim or Orthodox. Your Cardinal might (actually, probably) still worships god, but does it in a different way (think Christian vs Catholic).

Edit: Heresy isn't *always* labeled as some strange religion. Sometimes it could be.

**Renco** · November 11, 2007, 10:54 PM

Originally Posted by supekele

Remember that heresy isn't labeled as some strange new religion in the TW series, it just represents any faith that is different (so much so that it's used in a derogative way) than Catholic, Muslim or Orthodox. Your Cardinal might (actually, probably) still worships god, but does it in a different way (think Christian vs Catholic).

Edit: Heresy isn't *always* labeled as some strange religion. Sometimes it could be.

It's definatley still worshipping god. Whenever one of your guys gets converted, it says that the herectic has convinced your priest that his mandate is the correct way for god. I don't know why it matters, but yeh, all still theists.

**Trevarian** · November 12, 2007, 02:48 AM

I play SS 4.1 and I have noticed a definite decrease in ridiculous seemingly random negative traits since i installed the mod so if you are not using a mod maybe you should browse around the hosted modifications section and see if theres anything that interests you.

**sherbs** · November 12, 2007, 09:32 AM

I am using SS 4.1.

I think the point is that this game is in two parts. Management and battles. The battles are great but the management part seems really flimsy. In order to manage you have to make use of agents and therefore the better your agents, the better you should be able to manage. So agents are a big part of the game.
Not much can happen to Diplomats but then anything they achieve isn't worth the paper it's written on. Merchants just keep getting hijacked and it's 50/50 whether your ace spy will make it through his next assignment. Now I can't even rely on my top priest.

I know things can happen but when a big part of the game is getting these agents up to top level, it's rubbish that you can't have any faith in them when they're there.

**jalen911** · November 12, 2007, 03:32 PM

Your archbishop maybe want to reform the Catholic.

**sherbs** · November 12, 2007, 06:29 PM

Yes, NobleNick, I found that interesting. It's good advice. I just can't understand why some things are in the game. Sure, you've got a new priest, there's always a chance he might turn. But when a priest has risen to be Cardinal, he doesn't just wake up one morning and say, "Forget being Pope, I think I'll go heretic". That's just silly.

**NobleNick** · November 15, 2007, 01:41 PM

Originally Posted by sherbs

...I just can't understand why some things are in the game. Sure, you've got a new priest, there's always a chance he might turn. But when a priest has risen to be Cardinal, he doesn't just wake up one morning and say, "Forget being Pope, I think I'll go heretic". That's just silly.

I respectfully submit that I think the designers actually got this one right. This is maybe just a bit off-topic, but...

Take Martin Luther, for example. He rose to an exalted position in the Catholic church, but as he tried to get closer to God, he discovered things in the bible that the Catholic church was not following. He posted 95 theses in the door of Wittenburg church on the day of All Saint's Eve (the day which later became twisted into modern day Halloween). The Theses were in Latin, which the common people could not read, but only the highly educated scholars of the day. Posting such documents on the church door was a common practice of the day for starting such discussions. Luthern thought he was doing the church a favor, by fostering academic debate within the church. He hoped that out of such debate would come changes in the Roman Catholic church which would bring the church closer to God. But the Theses were so popular and startling that the common folk caught wind of the debate. Within days Luther's work was translated into the German tongue. Within weeks the entire European continent was on fire, the Protestant reformation was born, and Luther, the Catholic scholar, was branded a heretic by the Pope.

Luther did not wake up one morning and say "I am going heretic." He woke up one morning, still thinking he was doing great service to the Catholic church; and found out the Pope had said, "I hereby declare you heretic!" I think the game models this well.

**Lunatic1701** · November 12, 2007, 06:46 PM

The Cardinal may have been thinking a bit too deeply upon his faith and found the church is not to his liking. At one point in the 16th century of the electors of the Empire about half were Lutheran, including the Archbishop of either Trier or Colonge (Been a few years since I studied this) and the Grand Master of the Teutonic Knights was Also Lutheran. Rank need not have any factor on the priests heresy, (bearing in mind, alot of modern christians would be considered heretics for having a vernacular bible) just think of him as someone who really believed.

As for spies, I love spies, so useful... so very useful been discussed by someone before.

Not too keen on merchants me, but thats purely laziness.

**Renco** · November 12, 2007, 11:36 PM

I must agree, I try to stay away from merchants unless I start off with them or I'm waiting for someone to attack to justify my conquering of their lands. In my opinion Merchants are either a waste or a whole new game where you have a full merchant on every trade thing (not using the 20 merchants exploit/ingenuity) and another hundred or so roaming the steppes of Russia or some equally distant land to hunt down enemy mercahnts and steal from them.
Although it should be noted I have never reached that calibre of Mercantile success, I have come close-ish.

**NobleNick** · November 14, 2007, 12:52 PM

Originally Posted by Renco

.... In my opinion Merchants are either a waste or a whole new game .... Although it should be noted I have never reached that calibre of Mercantile success, I have come close-ish.

The nice thing about Merchants is that you can take 'em or leave 'em. I think that was a nice touch by CA.

For me, it merchants are a nice adjunct to the game that I like to play. A merchant costs 500 and has no upkeep. Even if he has one "star" (I forget what those ranking symbols are called) and gets stuck on something making 25 florins per turn; you still break even in 20 turns or so. If you make enough to get a guild, and start cranking out 3, 4 and 5-star merchants to far away lands, these guys can make well over 200 florins per turn.

AND merchants are watching the map for you while they make money. I think of them as inferior substitutes for watchtowers or spies, which also happen to make 50 to 250 per turn for me instead of costing me 100 per turn.

20 year spy COST = 350 + (20 * 100) = 2350 florins
20 year merchant PROFIT = (-500) + (20 * 100) = 1500 florins

**Nebuchadnezzar** · November 13, 2007, 01:19 AM

A bit of game trivia I noticed

All heretics are christians b/c they carry a cross.

Islamic imams if turn heretic always become christians (b/c of the cross they carry).

**Old Geezer** · November 15, 2007, 07:11 AM

I have never noticed a cardinal going heretic. Does this ever happen?

**Vaxholm** · November 15, 2007, 07:37 AM

There are some things that are a bit illogical in TW games. The most glaring to me is the fact that it takes years to travel even a small distance by sea. I think they should go the other way and let you travel realistic distances by land and sea. This would promote more active invasions, more land battles, and an overall increase in difficulty and realism.

That being said, I disagree that spies are worthless. As others have pointed out, they're very valuable. You can get by without them, but why? You're forcing yourself to be an inferior player.