Dismounted Khassaki

[ArnyBoy]

I'm suprised they never made this unit, so I was wondering could someone make it for me. I don't have access to the right software.

P.S just give the unit a sword like the Latinkon's, no armour upgrade

Thanx

[Kiki52]

I think the reason why CA didn't give Egypt this unit is so that they wouldn't have powerful infantry. CA made the theme of the Crusades campaign as you are the good Christian Crusaders and you need to crush the evil hordes and hordes of Muslim armies with like 300 men versus 3,000 and win .

[Surgeon]

I think the reason why CA didn't give Egypt this unit is so that they wouldn't have powerful infantry. CA made the theme of the Crusades campaign as you are the good Christian Crusaders and you need to crush the evil hordes and hordes of Muslim armies with like 300 men versus 3,000 and win .

Muslims never had armor as heavy as Europeans, so you're being unreasonable here. CA was just trying to recreate history. Also, it's the Turks who are lacking in heavy infantry, since they only have the Dismounted Hasham. Egypt (in Kingdoms, at least), have a few powerful infantry units like Ghulams and Tabardiyya I think they were called. Plus both of those factions have the unbeatable Hashashins who chew up any other units except elephants.

[John I Tzimisces]

Muslims never had armor as heavy as Europeans, so you're being unreasonable here. CA was just trying to recreate history. Also, it's the Turks who are lacking in heavy infantry, since they only have the Dismounted Hasham. Egypt (in Kingdoms, at least), have a few powerful infantry units like Ghulams and Tabardiyya I think they were called. Plus both of those factions have the unbeatable Hashashins who chew up any other units except elephants.

Nonsense for the bolded sections.

[Surgeon]

Nonsense for the bolded sections.

O rly? Please quote sources next time you say something like that so I don't have to prompt you for them.

(unrelated to the above) Also, it was either few crusaders vs many Muslims (most realistic scenario; Crusader States weren't as abundant on manpower as the native Muslims + this armor argument), many crusaders vs many Muslims (boring... no variation) or many crusaders vs few Muslims (kinda unrealistic... why would the Muslims be short on manpower?). So no, CA wasn't trying to be racist.

[Miraj]

O rly? Please quote sources next time you say something like that so I don't have to prompt you for them.

(unrelated to the above) Also, it was either few crusaders vs many Muslims (most realistic scenario; Crusader States weren't as abundant on manpower as the native Muslims + this armor argument), many crusaders vs many Muslims (boring... no variation) or many crusaders vs few Muslims (kinda unrealistic... why would the Muslims be short on manpower?). So no, CA wasn't trying to be racist.

No one here said CA was trying to be racist. They weren't.

The whole notion of "few crusaders vs lots of muslims" is misleading. It makes the the false assumption that every passing moment in the existence of the Crusader states was like a scene from 300. Thats untrue. Surrounding Muslim states never bothered uniting against the Crusaders until 88 years when Nuraddin and Saladin arose. Crusaders rarely had to face more than one Muslim state at a time. And the states they faced were Seljuk breakaways that were more busy fighting amongst each other. Muslim states were more likely to use the crusaders as a sort of wild-card ally against their Muslim opponents rather than actually fight them. But when they did unite and gather their strength the KoJ was quite quick to fall indeed - ie Saladin.

In my educated opinion the real difference between the Crusaders and the Saracens was not armour at all - it was morale. The Crusaders were religiously devoted warriors fighting for their lives and real faith, the Muslims were locals fighting for a lot more worldly reasons and always had a home to fall back on.

I recommend you read some Osprey books on mideastern warfare or the recent "God's Warriors". It debunk some very common misconceptions about eastern warfare, weaponry and armour - and remember that 'eastern' means also Christians like Armenians and Georgians and to some extent even the Byzantines. Though Armenians and Byzantines eventually adopted western styles of warfare.

[SSJPabs]

Also, it's the Turks who are lacking in heavy infantry, since they only have the Dismounted Hasham.

Are you crazy? Janissary Heavy Infantry rip through anything else. I'd take Turkey's infantry roster over Egypt's any day of the week.

They might lack VARIETY, but they certainly don't in terms of quality.

[Miraj]

Actually CA did give a new heavy inf unit. Forget what they're called... something with an H.

[Drtad]

O rly? Please quote sources next time you say something like that so I don't have to prompt you for them.

He's right you know. Muslim nations like the Fatimids especially, were very big on armored infantry. Khwarezm had its cataphracts, heavy Mamluk soldiers were abundant throughout the Middle East, etc.

[Sher Khan]

In truth, it's not really a question of infantry armor. Al-Haqqas, Tabardariyyas, Dismounted Ghulams, and Halberd/Saracen militias are all well armored and equals of their non-elite Crusader counterparts. Cavalry too are well matched in armor.


The deciding factor, as someone mentioned, was morale. And if we take a look at the units in the Crusades campaign, the Muslim units have far lower morale than the crusader kingdoms. Battles are won not from one-on-one fighting (doing so even as the player spells major casualties), but from insta-routs. These are easier to achieve against Egypt and the Turks than they are against the Crusaders. However, in front-line fighting, both sides initially do well, with no real advantage to one side or the other.

[Surgeon]

@mirage
You hold some valid points. I guess that would make the game too much like the Britannia campaign though; instead of Baron's Alliance you'd have some Muslim state or other. And by unorganized I meant they weren't united, thanks for correcting me.

@SSJPabs
Oh right, I forgot about those... So basically it comes down to Muslim heavies being different unit types than European heavies. Europe heavy = armored sword-dudes, Middle-Eastern heavy = halberdiers, axemen, etc.

@Topic started
Forgot to mention this, heh. I already made the Dismounted Khassaki for a small mod I'm making,

Do you want me to upload the entire "installation" package so you can just unzip it into your M2TW folder, or only the model + info cards + the entries for modelDB and descr_units? I'm asking in case you have other mods installed and want this on top of those and not have it replace them.

Oh, and the Dismounted Khassaki is still more or less in test phase so it might be overpowered/underpowered at the moment. But that's easy to fiddle around with. Also, they don't have voices because I'm not sure how to implement those yet... somebody help me here...

[Darkarbiter]

. I don't know how to look at the modding tutorials section so I'm just going to start a new thread asking for something really easy and act like I don't have acess to notepad and I can't download open office. Infact I don't know how to read at all.

Suffice to say.

BTW ofcourse the qoutes are biased. Someone has to have said them and I don't think anyone was actually neutral. Ofcourse they were going to say the Greek emperor betrayed them.

[ArnyBoy]

Oi i'm watching you Darkarbiter. Anyway now that the dust has settled, I would appreciate it if you would just upload the models, unit info cards, descr unit entry and the modelsdb entry

Thanx Surgeon +rep

[Surgeon]

I think this is all, but you can slash my tires if I forgot anything

@Kiki
Ah, I see what you meant there. Though some of the quotes do actually compliment the Muslims, like one describes Saladin as being a "just prince, valiant and wise", and in another Nuradin basically calls a Christian king (forgot who) the best king in the world, so showing that he is very chivalrous. I find the one about the Greek Emperor's treachery to be rather funny actually because the quote goes on to say that "our troops, however, had indulged in certain excesses and had incurred his displeasure"

[Darkarbiter]

I find the one about the Greek Emperor's treachery to be rather funny actually because the quote goes on to say that "our troops, however, had indulged in certain excesses and had incurred his displeasure"

+1

It's just like now that I know all the troops have stopped reading... for those actually interested in what happened:

[ArnyBoy]

Surgeon thanks but when I try to use the units in a battle they are invisble. Any help??

[Surgeon]

@Darkarbiter
Um, I'm having a hard time understanding what you mean? Your statement looks unfinished... Was there supposed to be something after the colon (unless this is some error on my end)?

@ArnyBoy
Did you change the serialization number at the top of modelDB? The very first line goes something like "22 serialization::archive 3 0 0 0 0 790 0 0" (bolding mine). The bolded number might be different if you're using other mods, but basically you need to add 1 to that number when you add a new unit, so if it's 790 you need to switch it to 791.

[Kiki52]

Are you also planning on making a Dismounted Mamluk Archers or a Dismounted Sibyan al-Khass as well? I would hope that in your mod you can put a Dismounted Sibyan al-Khass as an archer unit that would be really powerful. Maybe 1 less missile attack power than Janissary Archers or the same missile attack power as them.
I also think it'd be good if Egypt also got something like a recolored Crossbow militia or Peasant Crossbowmen like the Moors have because Egypt used a lot of those too.

[SSJPabs]

I don't think it would be good to have more dismounted units. The easiest way to make a powerful archer is just to boost the Nubian Archers of the Kingdoms archer (al-something) I moved that Kingdoms one to 9 missile while keeping their uselessness as melee and raised their recruitment a little. If you don't Egypt has THREE archer units that have 7 missile. Pointless. Also what's interesting is that Turkey has weakest mounted archers if you compare the Byzantine Roster the Egyptian and the Turkish.

Also Naffatun is useless at 23 and isn't QUITE good enough at 27. I may boost it to 29, good god did the bugs effect it that much?

[Surgeon]

At the moment I'm focusing on the Crusader States and don't have much planned for Egypt and Turkey. I just made the Dismounted Khassaki because they look so badass. Once I finish up with the Crusaders I'll start fleshing out the Muslim forces a bit.

As SSJPabs said, though, it's probably better to edit the existing units than add another one to the mix. I'm not sure how close I am to the unit limit, but I might have to remove a bunch of units that are never used like those of the Saxons etc.