Overpowered Savaran?

[Sarmatian]

Hi guys, great mod. For once, there's a challenge in playing the ERE.
But on a downside I found Sassanids to be overpowered, expecially Savaran heavy cavalry.

Let's see.

1. They cost 400 something gold to recruit and have 220 upkeep and they can be built in level 2 stables, which means they can be built anywhere. Romans cab build Eqites Promoti on that level which cost 800 and have more than 300 gold in upkeep.

2. They have more men than every other type of cavalry, and most infantry units for that matter. On a large unit scale, they have 102, while roman legions have 82, and most roman cavalry units have 50. Catafractrii have 40 for example. Building Catafractarii demand high level foundries, cost more, have higher upkeep and you need 3 units to be on par with one savaran.
Money wise Catafractarii cost 1144 and have an upkeep of 390.
That means if I want to be on par with savaran, I need 3 units which costs 3432 and have an upkeep of 1170 while Sassanids need only 440 and pay upkeep of 220. Also, Sassanids can retrain Savaran just about anywhere while I have to take catafractarii back to Constantinople.

3. Ridiculous stats. Savaran have stats better than Catafractarii. Their defence is so good that almost nothing can pierce their armor. Arrows are useless. Javelin throwing infantry units are cut down by arrows before they are close enough, and even if they are not, their javelins still inflict only modest damage. Horse archers are also useless. Equites Parthii, that cost 912, and have 400 something upkeep can't do anything. I had 3 units of 3 silver chevrons Equites Partii and 5 units of Steppe missile cavalry vs 3 units of Savaran. Without closing in, they shot arrows or whatever type of missiles they are using and killed almost 80 percent of my HA within a minute and routed the rest. Those 3 units of Savaran lost on average 5-10 men each.

4. Missile weapon. What type of weapon they are using? Their image show some type of javelins but they act more like they are using bows, because they have tremendous range and they can keep firing them through entire battle. I'm not sure what is their attack value (I think it is more than 10) but they cut thorugh everything, legionares and clibinarii alike. I don't want to mention unarmoured units. Comitanenses can go toe to toe with them, provided that they don't take too much damage from their missiles before the close in for melee, but they suffer heavy loses. But even with that being true, they can build much more savaran than I can comitanenses. Comitanenses cost 880 and take three turns to build and have 300+ upkeep.

Basically, Savaran are unstoppable. They can hold out in melee with almost any infantry unit, and they are more manouverable than them. Their missile attack pretty much nulifies the possibility of using other HA against them, unless you outnumber them at least 4 to 1. Heavy cavalry is cut to pieces before they close in, and when it does, it's fighting an enemy as strong in melee as itself.

The only way to kill them was to hit them with burning pieces of mountain (ie Onagers and Heavy Onagers). That worked for a while, when they were using 5-6 Savarans in a stack. Now I'm facing 10-15 Savarans in a stack and nothing can fight that and live. I now that Persian were known for their heavy cavalry, but I seriously doubt that heavy cavalry were 85% of their army.

Savaran combine manouverabilty of cavalry units, staying power of armoured infantry, missile attack way better than any other in the game which cuts through anything, armour that can't be penetrated with almost any type of misile, have more men per unit than militia, can be recruited almost in any city and their cost and upkeep can be compared with some unarmoured infantry units and after some time the comprise more than 80% percent of Sassanian army

This is hugely unbalancing and someting must be done. Reduce their missile attack and armour, make them only recruitable in level 3 stables, increase their cost and upkeep and reduce the number of men per unit for 1/4 would be some of the solutions....

[joerd9]

I second that.
These guys are the riders of the apocalypse, the horses of hell, the host of Gog and Magog, simply put: Chuck Norris on a horse that is Chuck Norris.
I abandoned my ERE campaign because I got literally swept away by them. I managed to stop two of their armies, consisting of mostly Savaran plus 1-2 Elephants and something else. Then I toggle_fow-ed and saw they had like another 10 stacks of a similar composition. I cried and quit then...

[Gäiten]

Do more of you players agree with that???
Are the standard Savaran too strong?

What difficult level did you play?

[Sarmatian]

Do more of you players agree with that???
Are the standard Savaran too strong?

What difficult level did you play?

Very Hard. But I am not a novice, I'm experienced with both Rome and BI and with mods, being involved in some myself.

I am able to wage war succesfully with Ostrogoths, WRE, Huns, Lakhmids and Persarmenians at the same time. But one on one against Sassanids is harder then all of those together. Okay, maybe not with WRE there, but take out WRE from the list and it is.

Just tone down Savaran a bit. They are uber units right now. If I play as Sassanids there really is no need to recruit anything else. They are very cheap, and act as line infantry, horse archers and heavy cavalry at the same time. The only thing that they miss is the ability to penetrate walls, like elephants. They have everything else

Also, I think something should be done with Jerusalem. It is quite ok to force Judaism there, but the problem is that with influence of all other regions, it's population very quickly become 100% christian. So I would suggest that the building that forces religion give huge amount of conversion to judaism to negate the effect of neighbouring christian regions, or at least give large happines bonus, because it's very hard to control it, even with full garrison. I mean, what's the point of forcing religion if the population ends up being christian 100%

[kambiz]

Guys ,The team is well aware of the matters you're pointing to. Me as well think that Savaran shall be balanced by increasing their coast ,upkeep , number of turn needed to be trained and in some cases their numbers shall be lowered as well.

But bear in mind that there are more units in other factions that their statues in general needed to be revisioned. It will be ,in the further versions. So patience my friend ,IBFD is a great project ,with a team which is low on manpower But they are all working tirelessly on this project

[Miraj]

The Savaran better be unbalanced! They were the greatest heavy cavalry force of their times.

[Sarmatian]

The Savaran better be unbalanced! They were the greatest heavy cavalry force of their times.

Undoubtely, but did they make up more than 2/3 of Sassanian army?

Guys ,The team is well aware of the matters you're pointing to. Me as well think that Savaran shall be balanced by increasing their coast ,upkeep , number of turn needed to be trained and in some cases their numbers shall be lowered as well.

But bear in mind that there are more units in other factions that their statues in general needed to be revisioned. It will be ,in the further versions. So patience my friend ,IBFD is a great project ,with a team which is low on manpower But they are all working tirelessly on this project

I can only agree. It is one of the best mods, if not the best out there.

Another unit that is heavily unbalancing is hunnic foederati. They cost 80, with upkeep of only 20 gold on VH. I built one stack of them in one turn, and proceeded to clean up several full stack of ostrogoths and take all their settlements. They are very good against factions that rely on unarmoured infantry, and deployed properly they can be useful against romans. One full stack of them cost as much as one unit of clibinarii.

I just wanted to tell the team that I think Savaran are too powerful. I didn't mean any disrespect to the team. There are others things that I think should be corrected but they are really minor. This is the biggest I found so far...

[Ramon Gonzales y Garcia]

Another unit that is heavily unbalancing is hunnic foederati.

Found that out later, they should be about 200 or so cost w/ a relatively high upkeep (I forgot to edit the hunnic cavalry stats on that one)

I just wanted to tell the team that I think Savaran are too powerful.

I agree with that, too. this has actually been toned down in v7.04+ but those versions have stability problems.

...They are very cheap,...

the low upkeep cost is meant to reflect their 'feudal' nature, in that they were not 'hired' or 'recruited' by the Shahanshah.
There was a discussion earlier comparing the Savaran to M1 tanks that cost a few million each, but the proper comparison would probably be - the crews of the M1 tank buying the tank themselves, paying for upkeep and maintenance, and providing all necessities (armament, food, etc) when they are called to battle - in return they are granted land.

...and act as line infantry, horse archers and heavy cavalry at the same time.

which they probably did. thus the Sassanian reliance on them instead of heavy infantry.

The Savaran better be unbalanced! They were the greatest heavy cavalry force of their times.

this, however, is also true.

truth be said getting the balance right is very difficult, the Sassies must have a strong cavalry, and must rely on them (I still think the low tier level recruitment is still logical as they were not 'regular army' - like the Roman cataphracts, but were almost 'feudal' in nature - another plus for the M2TW ability to limit number of units recruitable) , but 7.03 stats were unbalanced. I also upped anti-cav capabilities of roman legionnaires in later (and current internal) versions

Btw, can anyone tell me how they are called in the EDU? I didn't find them under Savaran.

would you believe 'armoured camel riders'

[Miraj]

Undoubtely, but did they make up more than 2/3 of Sassanian army?

Yeah, too bad RTW recruitment system wasn't more flexible like M2TW is, with replenishment rates and such.

[joerd9]

Sure. And they shall remain so. I just don't want to face a million of them every other turn. Even the Sassies at the height of their power had manpower limitations. Raising the cost and recruitment time will help alot.
Btw, can anyone tell me how they are called in the EDU? I didn't find them under Savaran.

Edit: @Gäiten: I've been playing on medium battle diff.

[Gäiten]

A little tip, you are free to modify the file export_descr_unit.txt.

Look for Armoured Camel Riders. These are the description for the Savaran.
But be careful, make a copy of the file.

[Sarmatian]

We all agree that Savaran have been very powerful in reality and should be very powerful in the mod, but this is, as joerd said, chuck norris on a horse that is chuck norris. It's great that they are gonna be tonned down in late version, but I think something should also be done with their numbers, meaning both number of men in savaran unit, and number of savaran units.

Take a look at this. These screenshots are all from the same turn.

1.Near Mosul






2. Situation near Taran



3. And near Artaxarta




And guess who's hiding behind question marks on most occassions?

I rest my case

[Ihatemonday]

The engine of RTW has a very easy sense .You see when a unit is cheap and powerful the AI automatically generates full stack one unit type armies.To avoid this annoying habit,
1)Making savaran expensive both cost and upkeep
2)only large and huge cities with foundries can build them
3)Lowering their stats.
Must be done.Then the AI will automitaclly reduce the number of this Immortal unit

[Gäiten]

With more cavalry than infantry units in enemy armies, build up a fortress line!

Cavalry is ill-suited for close quarter battles such as in siege battles.

[joerd9]

I wonder if someone told the Saravan yet...

Normally, that's correct. I managed to hold them in street fight, although with heavy losses (these dudes just won't die). The problem is, there is always another army of them around. And another, and so on.

I'll try with raising their cost and recruitment time.

[Sarmatian]

I wonder if someone told the Saravan yet...
.

Somebody must have told them but they pretend that they don't know it and still fight effectively in the streets as they do in open fields, bastards

It's too late for me to edit their stats by the way, since I am too long in the game, and I don't fel like starting a new one. I'll have to beat them the way they are now. And starting a new game wouldn't be appropriate anyway, 'cause this is personal now. It's me against them, one against many, a hero against a horde...

I still find the most effective way to deal with them is to hurl a chunk of mountain on them, burning one preferably. If I continue to use so much rock, entire asia minor and middle east will become flat in a couple of decades......

[Ramon Gonzales y Garcia]

It's too late for me to edit their stats by the way, since I am too long in the game, and I don't fel like starting a new one.......

actually you could, it wouldn't affect your savegame

I'll have to beat them the way they are now. And starting a new game wouldn't be appropriate anyway, 'cause this is personal now. It's me against them, one against many, a hero against a horde...

but then again...

[Sarmatian]

actually you could, it wouldn't affect your savegame

That's what I meant. It won't affect my savegame so I would have to start a new game for the change to have effect. But, as I said, it's personal, they were messing with a wrong Serb

Anyway, pretty effective strategy against them is to combine sieges and artillery. I abandon the gates completely and set up defences on the town square. Since they are very slow in cities, they are perfect target for onagers.

Anyway, congrats once more on the mod, man. It is really a work of art. One more question, though. Why isn't it possible to recruit cataphracts in eastern provinces? I mean, it's a huge pain in the rear to have to drag them from Asia Minor to Arabia, and then take them back for retraining.

[Ramon Gonzales y Garcia]

That's what I meant. It won't affect my savegame so I would have to start a new game for the change to have effect. But, as I said, it's personal, they were messing with a wrong Serb

I meant - the changes would take effect but your savegame would be playable.

Anyway, congrats once more on the mod, man. It is really a work of art. One more question, though. Why isn't it possible to recruit cataphracts in eastern provinces? I mean, it's a huge pain in the rear to have to drag them from Asia Minor to Arabia, and then take them back for retraining.

I limited recruiting of advanced cavalry units to 'Roman' territories. main purpose is to force A.I. and player to rely on auxiliaries farther afield.

[Dark_horse_spirit]

Hi,

I play v7 because it is the most stable. The animations are smooth and there is not a large wait time in between and going to battles. This thread has been interesting to read. I think that the game is perfect just the way it is. I am currently in a campaign myself and am facing the Sassinads as well, I found that I am successfully able to combat the Catafracti and Savarans by bulking my army with spearmen and building lots of forts as obstacles. I use advanced pickets of one Heavy Legion with a defense level of at least 29(preferably more)2 bowman and at least 4 spearmen in depth....on the flanks. I set up a defence perimeter on a hill or a bridgehead and wait for the calvary. I let the AI control the calvary. The calvary being my reinforcements. The problem with this approach has been that the calvary will only defend one area of defense.Eg..if you are holding off a bridge and a downstream crossing, the AI will not defend the crossing. It is vital to place enough men at the crossing for the whole battle, because moving units from the bridge to the crossing in battle is tiring at best and may work but at a high cost of units.

Secondly in between cities there should be at least 2 forts and spread out cities should have a watch tower in between as well. The forts should have fast moving units for reinforcement power. There is no nead to purchase great quantities of heavy legionarre, they are overpriced and do very little. A levy of cheap bowmen and cheap spearmen will always take the day.
This is what has worked for me A good general and alot of crappy cheap
troops.

DHS