Rio IBFD VII Expansion Suggestions Ideas

[Riothamus]

Future Upgrades and Suggestions: Rio Flagellum Dei VII. Open for suggestions.

City level infra structure gov building
Will allow the military and economic cities to build buildings outside of their ascribed predispositions: Military cities can build high level economic buildings and likewise for economic cities. Capital cities remain supreme in all aspects of building.

Prerequisite: infra structure gov building
an office(ancillary) such as the imperial urbi magistrate,

2. Empire East: Master Fabrica
Only in Constantinople

3. Prerequisite: Master Fabrica
An advanced infantry-cavalry-Strategikon-barracks and unit(s)-for Empire East: davidharvey1 idea

4. New Building: Horse Stud farms.
5. Mod will be in a Mod switcher.

6. General unit slightly decreased ...attributes increased. Hit points back to 1

7. very limited number of sapping units will be only recruited at the siege_engineer building

8. redoing unit amour stats

9. Logistica and siege guilds: engineering corps
2 Ancillaries
Imperial urbi magistrate
Praefectus fabrum

10. Blending in Pics and Gaels
When either the Pics or the Gaels conquer each others territory they will be able to recruit some of the others factions units. They will although have separate textures thus appearing differently in the game battles.

11. Britannia Question
Due to the large number of provinces in Britain(Hibernia, and Pict land) The ability to build the higher military and economic technologies will be non existent in many of the cities.

12. Core buildings starting with the governors villa(large town) will be a hearth of sorts for a factions advanced unit. This will up tempo the game a bit and give factions a strong unit early on in the game. This will be more magnified with the Saxons for they will be able to eventually recruit the units below by the creation of the Imperial palace.
kotsetla Ceorls
Geneatas Ceorls
Geoguth
Duguth


Would like to add these three Eastern Empire units very late...for the Justinian Mod.

http://www.mlahanas.de/Greeks/Mediev...leTactics.html

1 Cataphracts were the heavy assault force of most nations that used them, acting as shock troops supported by light or heavy infantry and foot or mounted archers. .

2 Skutatoi: The bulk of the byzantine infantry were the skutatoi, named from the word skutos, for their large oval shield.

3 Toxotai or Psiloi: The standard light infantry of the empire, in each chiliarchia they made up the last three lines. These soldiers, highly trained in the art of bow, were formidable archers.

[Riothamus]

Logistica and siege guilds: engineering corps
Logistica for trade and the military
EDIT
building siege_corps
{
levels engineer_guild logistics_guild siege_engineer_corps
{
engineer_guild requires factions { barbarian, eastern, roman, } and building_present_min_level academic academy
{
capability
{
trade_base_income_bonus bonus 2 requires factions { barbarian, eastern, roman, } and building_present_min_level market trader
}
construction 2
cost 2000
settlement_min large_town
upgrades
{
logistics_guild
}
}
logistics_guild requires factions { barbarian, eastern, roman, } and building_present_min_level academic academy
{
capability
{
;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;recruit sap units
recruit "daylam infantry sap" 1 requires factions { eastern, }
recruit "comitatenses sap" 1 requires factions { roman, }
more units to come......


trade_base_income_bonus bonus 3 requires factions { barbarian, eastern, roman, } and building_present_min_level market trader
trade_base_income_bonus bonus 4 requires factions { barbarian, eastern, roman, } and building_present_min_level market market
trade_base_income_bonus bonus 5 requires factions { barbarian, eastern, roman, } and building_present_min_level market forum
trade_base_income_bonus bonus 6 requires factions { barbarian, eastern, roman, } and building_present_min_level market great_forum
trade_base_income_bonus bonus 7 requires factions { barbarian, eastern, roman, } and building_present_min_level market curia
}
construction 4
cost 5000
settlement_min city
upgrades
{
siege_engineer_corps
}
}
siege_engineer_corps requires factions { romano_british, franks, goths, ostrogoths, eastern, roman, } and building_present_min_level academic academy
{
capability
{
;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;recruit sap units
recruit "daylam infantry sap" 2 requires factions { eastern, }
recruit "comitatenses sap" 2 requires factions { roman, }
more units to come......
trade_base_income_bonus bonus 6 requires factions { barbarian, eastern, roman, } and building_present_min_level market trader
trade_base_income_bonus bonus 7 requires factions { barbarian, eastern, roman, } and building_present_min_level market market
trade_base_income_bonus bonus 8 requires factions { barbarian, eastern, roman, } and building_present_min_level market forum
trade_base_income_bonus bonus 9 requires factions { barbarian, eastern, roman, } and building_present_min_level market great_forum
trade_base_income_bonus bonus 10 requires factions { barbarian, eastern, roman, } and building_present_min_level market curia
}
construction 8
cost 10000
settlement_min large_city
upgrades
{
}
}
}

[Riothamus]

2 Ancillaries
1 Imperial urbi magistrate
and SettlementBuildingExists = treasury
and SettlementBuildingExists = secret_police_hq
2 Praefectus fabrum
and SettlementBuildingExists >= academy
and SettlementBuildingExists >= smiths_workshop
and SettlementBuildingExists >= siege_engineer
and SettlementBuildingExists >= siege_engineer_corps

[Oswald von Wolkenstein]

looks great -- I had a few ideas. One is kind of silly but might be easy to do:

Change the Picture of the Courtesan to something else (for variation)

other idea -- don't know if it's possible -- When one faction gets eliminated have the possibility of another faction appear on the edge of the screen as horde to attack randomly -- this would be cool and make for some surprises and lead to endless war. but I don't know if it's possible.

[Riothamus]

looks great -- I had a few ideas. One is kind of silly but might be easy to do:

Change the Picture of the Courtesan to something else (for variation)

other idea -- don't know if it's possible -- When one faction gets eliminated have the possibility of another faction appear on the edge of the screen as horde to attack randomly -- this would be cool and make for some surprises and lead to endless war. but I don't know if it's possible.

Ill check on the diplomat courtesan ancillary

The appearance of a horde faction triggered by ones elimination is interesting but out of my realm of modding

[Riothamus]

Further additions

10. Blending in Picts and Gaels
When either the Pics or the Gaels conquer each others territory they will be able to recruit some of the others factions units. They will although have separate textures thus appearing differently in the game battles.
11. Britannia Question
Due to the large number of provinces in Britain(Hibernia, and Pict land) The ability to build the higher military and economic technologies will be non existent in many of the cities.
12. Core buildings starting with the governors villa(large town) will be a hearth of sorts for a factions advanced unit. This will up tempo the game a bit and give factions a strong unit early on in the game. This will be more magnified with the Saxons for they will be able to eventually recruit the units below by the creation of the Imperial palace.
kotsetla Ceorls
Geneatas Ceorls
Geoguth
Duguth
13. druzhina foot and Slavs
-Up graded the druzhina foot to leather armour: increased in armour hit points.
-Many units will have max numbers to make up for the lack of armour.

[Scolot]

2Riothamus

-Up graded the druzhina foot to leather armour: increased in armour hit points.

IMHO upgraded 'foot druzhina' must be more expensive to recruit. In fact they already have access to more advanced weapons, which were not cheap. It concerns 'venedi cavalry' too.

-Many units will have max numbers to make up for the lack of armour.

I think it is not absolutely correct. Lack of the armour can be made up by more defensive stats of slavs units. They did have strong and 'hard to carry' shields. But not more numbers. Slavs were not like rabbits They did not have more favorable conditions by a birth of children, than other barbarians had.

[Riothamus]

2Riothamus

IMHO upgraded 'foot druzhina' must be more expensive to recruit. In fact they already have access to more advanced weapons, which were not cheap. It concerns 'venedi cavalry' too.

I think it is not absolutely correct. Lack of the armour can be made up by more defensive stats of slavs units. They did have strong and 'hard to carry' shields. But not more numbers. Slavs were not like rabbits They did not have more favorable conditions by a birth of children, than other barbarians had.

Hi Scolot

The foot druzhina are expensive already in regards to the Nomad and barbarian cultures. In terms of what is expensive this varies from culture to culture. I don't see the economy as a blanket system for all factions.

In regards to the shields this defence can be improved. I have improved their defensive stats some time ago in previous Rio mod...but I'm open to that.

In regards to weaponry and armour I'm not sold on them being as equals to the Germanic tribes or the other factions within the game. I'm in the thought that the Germanic peoples in the fifth century were still superior in that regard.

The Slavs began a wide migration period in the 4th and 5th century that settled them in where previous Germanic and other peoples fled(from the Huns)They adapted very well and spread out successfully more so than their predecessors. There seems to be a more flexible resourse to gathering up an army by the time the Huns dissipated in the mid to lateer 5th centuries...so the reason for higher numbers and not for as you say, "Slavs were not like rabbits."

[Scolot]

2Riothamus
Rio, thanks for explanations.
And first of all I wish to tell the following.
When I write the posts and try to tell 'bout Slavs, first of all there are no any national feelings and pride (certainly, I do not forget about them) in my head. First of all, it is a love and fidelity both to a history and a true. Therefore my purpose on these threads is not to prove to everybody, that the Slavs were cooliest and most superior than other peoples in history. But my purpose is to share the knowledge. Believe me, it's true. And I consider, it would be ridiculous for my part to impose my point of view to developers who made this magnificent mods. Everything I can hope it that mod developers will listen to my ideas and reasons. Lot of thanks them for it
And all I can help and share to delevopers is my knowledge of East Europe peoples of its time frame (in general) and of the Slavs (in particular). And I'll be very glad if developers use it.
So, in a view of the aforesaid I continue.

The foot druzhina are expensive already in regards to the Nomad and barbarian cultures. In terms of what is expensive this varies from culture to culture. I don't see the economy as a blanket system for all factions.

Certainly.
But let's look at a glance at Slavs units and its recruitment cost.
Slav raiders - 300 d., Herulja - 400 d. Why for Slavs it is much more cheaply to recruit the combatant unit (with best armour and weapons) - 'foot druzhina' which cost 190 d than ordinary raiders?
The same for cavalry. Ordinary 'Steppe horde archers' - 680 d, 'Steppe warriros' - 320, but more powerful 'Venedi cavalry' - only 275. (BTW, is it correct that 'Steppe horde archers' have defence=21?).
And I really doubt that for Slavs it was cheaper to buy good armour and weapons, than for other factions.

In regards to weaponry and armour I'm not sold on them being as equals to the Germanic tribes or the other factions within the game. I'm in the thought that the Germanic peoples in the fifth century were still superior in that regard.

I think we can't make any conclusions 'bout what tribe weaponry&armoury were better than other. Because of different armour complex of barbarous tribes, Germans were closer to Rome culture, Slavs - to Nomads (Sarmatians, Huns, etc.). What is more reliable: a bow or a sword? A lancer or a mounted archer with an axe? We can never make any unequivocal conclusions. Depending on different conditions any type of the weapon has advantage above another. If you consider, that Germans had access to more perfect weapon than Slavs:hmmm: , I cannot agree with it in any way. My argumentation of it is in 'Slavic question' thread.

The Slavs began a wide migration period in the 4th and 5th century that settled them in where previous Germanic and other peoples fled(from the Huns)They adapted very well and spread out successfully more so than their predecessors. There seems to be a more flexible resourse to gathering up an army by the time the Huns dissipated in the mid to lateer 5th centuries...so the reason for higher numbers and not for as you say, "Slavs were not like rabbits."

But Rio. In regarding of this point I can't understand you.
1) Are there any evidences in history that Slavs could provide more resourses than that tribes who leaved this region earlier? More likely on the contrary. German and other peoples expansions were not like Slav expansion. Slav expansion meant that separate groups of a tribe moved without any mass leaving of former places of dwelling. The German expansion generally was characterized by mass leaving of native places, therefore more likely Germans could provide more flexible resourses at the new territories than Slavs.
2) Are there any evidences in history that Balkan regions have been more densely occupied by Slavs, than 'slavic native' regions in Central and East Europe?

So, I guess, that:

In regards to the shields this defence can be improved. I have improved their defensive stats some time ago in previous Rio mod...but I'm open to that.

it should be more defensive capabilities than numbers

[Riothamus]

2Riothamus
Rio, thanks for explanations.
And first of all I wish to tell the following.
When I write the posts and try to tell 'bout Slavs, first of all there are no any national feelings and pride (certainly, I do not forget about them But my purpose is to share the knowledge. Believe me,
And all I can help and share to delevopers is my knowledge of East Europe peoples of its time frame (in general) and of the Slavs (in particular). And I'll be very glad if developers use it.
So, in a view of the aforesaid I continue.

Well said

2Riothamus
Certainly.
But let's look at a glance at Slavs units and its recruitment cost.
Slav raiders - 300 d., Herulja - 400 d. Why for Slavs it is much more cheaply to recruit the combatant unit (with best armour and weapons) - 'foot druzhina' which cost 190 d than ordinary raiders?
The same for cavalry. Ordinary 'Steppe horde archers' - 680 d, 'Steppe warriros' - 320, but more powerful 'Venedi cavalry' - only 275. (BTW, is it correct that 'Steppe horde archers' have defence=21?).
And I really doubt that for Slavs it was cheaper to buy good armour and weapons, than for other factions.

I think you got these costs from IBFD? those are incorrect costs. I made adjustments in the Rio Mod that differ in all aspects of unit costs. Druzhina foot cost 500 but the cost of upkeep is 100. I'm still in the process of though of moding this through out the mod.

But Rio. In regarding of this point I can't understand you.

1) Are there any evidences in history that Slavs could provide more resources than that tribes who leaved this region earlier? More likely on the contrary. German and other peoples expansions were not like Slav expansion. Slav expansion meant that separate groups of a tribe moved without any mass leaving of former places of dwelling. The German expansion generally was characterized by mass leaving of native places, therefore more likely Germans could provide more flexible resources at the new territories than Slavs.

2) Are there any evidences in history that Balkan regions have been more densely occupied by Slavs, than 'slavic native' regions in Central and East Europe?

This is where its nice to be a modder. You get to add History, Historical imagination and game play. I simply see the Slavs as a very resilient people(this resiliency provides the resources for larger units: modders prerogative.) but not as technologically advanced in weaponry and armour in comparison to other peoples in the 4th and fifth centuries.

[Scolot]

2Riothamus

I think you got these costs from IBFD? those are incorrect costs.

No. It's your mod. :hmmm: I even installed 'Rio VI Expansion' pack. Some changes appeared, but not concerning 'foot druzhina'. This unit is still non-upgraded with old stats. Can you give me a link to latest version of your mod?

Druzhina foot cost 500 but the cost of upkeep is 100

Yes, I think it's a most relevant cost.

This is where its nice to be a modder. You get to add History, Historical imagination and game play. I simply see the Slavs as a very resilient people(this resiliency provides the resources for larger units: modders prerogative.)

I see you. Well, it is your choice and opinion.

but not as technologically advanced in weaponry and armour in comparison to other peoples in the 4th and fifth centuries.

Yes, I think Slavs were not more advanced in weaponry and armour in comparison to other peoples. But on the other hand, they were not also backward in comparison with other barbarous people in regards to weapons and armour.
I quote myself : «Migration period» has mentioned huge number of tribes and peoples. This process can be presented in the form of «an international boiler» in which different customs and cultures interwine; and in it’s boiler interaction of various people occurs very closely. There is an intensive exchange of cultural traditions, military experience, etc. That's why it is impossible to approve, that one barbarous nation was more advanced than other one within the limits of this 'boiler'.

[Riothamus]

2Riothamus

No. It's your mod. :hmmm: I even installed 'Rio VI Expansion' pack. Some changes appeared, but not concerning 'foot druzhina'. This unit is still non-upgraded with old stats. Can you give me a link to latest version of your mod?

I think the expansion patch is the one your missing. It has a few more changes in unit stats. The next version(Rio VII) will have the stats completed. The Dl is on filefront with the Rio VI and Expansion.
http://hosted.filefront.com/Rioth/

[Scolot]

2Riothamus

I think the expansion patch is the one your missing. It has a few more changes in unit stats. The next version(Rio VII) will have the stats completed. The Dl is on filefront with the Rio VI and Expansion.
http://hosted.filefront.com/Rioth/

Very strange.:hmmm:
I've downloaded and installed 'Rio EXPANSION patch', but still new changes have not concerned 'foot druzhina' stats And still 'Steppe warriors' have defense=23.
Ok, I think it would be better to wait for Rio VII

BTW, about gods. I've never heard 'bout such slavic gods as Pai and Agni. AFAIK, Agni is an indoarian deity. Pai... in mod it is said that it is a Sarmatian deity. Perun and Jarilo are certainly slavic gods. But Agni and Pai have never been slavic gods. I think the most corresponding slavic gods pantheon is Svarog, Jarilo, Rod, Veles. I really doubted 'bout Perun. There is an opinion that a cult of this deity have occured later.

The Supreme god of Turkish tribes (including Huns) was Tengri, This deity is absent in mod. I think this deity must be at Huns and Bulgars.

How 'bout regions names of East Europe correction? I have some suggestions.

[Riothamus]

2Riothamus

Very strange.:hmmm:
I've downloaded and installed 'Rio EXPANSION patch', but still new changes have not concerned 'foot druzhina' stats And still 'Steppe warriors' have defense=23.
Ok, I think it would be better to wait for Rio VII

BTW, about gods. I've never heard 'bout such slavic gods as Pai and Agni.

How 'bout regions names of East Europe correction? I have some suggestions.

Hi Scolot,

I noticed the costs for some of the units you got from the custom battle costs...they differ from the in game campaign costs but anyway changes are still being made with all that.

Assistance with Slavic regions would be great
Thanks

Concerning the gods much info came from Duke of Serbia and from other research. The gods you mentioned that don't belong are at least from nomadic cultures which are already in the game. This could be cleaned up a bit but I'm not comfortable with changing the Slavic Gods without some feed back from Duke of Serbia first. But any research you can provide I will take a serious look at.

[Scolot]

Hi Rio,

Assistance with Slavic regions would be great

Not only slavic regions, but whole East Europe.
Tonight (when I back home) I'll try to post my suggestions.

This could be cleaned up a bit but I'm not comfortable with changing the Slavic Gods without some feed back from Duke of Serbia first

Don't you know where is he? It would be great to discuss this question with him.

But any research you can provide I will take a serious look at.

:hmmm: I think there can be no researches. On the contrary, there would be researches to confirm, that Agni and Pai have been slavic deities. But that deties have never been slavic. What kind of sources do you accept to be convinced in it?

[Riothamus]

Hi Rio,

Not only slavic regions, but whole East Europe.
Tonight (when I back home) I'll try to post my suggestions.

Don't you know where is he? It would be great to discuss this question with him.

:hmmm: I think there can be no researches. On the contrary, there would be researches to confirm, that Agni and Pai have been slavic deities. But that deties have never been slavic. What kind of sources do you accept to be convinced in it?

Yes I know this already

You can pm him here:
DukeofSerbia

[Scolot]

2Rio
Hi, Rio.

Yes I know this already

? As I understood, there is no need to provide any researhes? As you already know this.

About maps. Still have no time, but some thoughts I have in my mind.
What are the basic approaches you used for regions names? I think, one of the basic approaches should be the fact of residing in this territory of any tribe/people. According to this approach I also wish to offer the names to regions of East and Central Europe. What do you think?

You can pm him here:
DukeofSerbia

I have PM'ed him. But his last post is dated by May2007. I hope he will answer me

[Scolot]

Ok. My suggestions 'bout region names in Central and East Europe.
For a basis it is possible to take here this map http://www.euratlas.com/history_euro..._map_0500.html.
It has some discrepancies, but everything I think that for presentation this map is relevant.
On the West 5th AD - time of the beginning of slavic tribes moving to the west and to northwest of the Oder river. The territiories between Oder and Visla rivers have been populated by defferent tribes with the slavic prevalence. It is open to discuss which prevalence (Slavic or German) were on the lands to the west of Oder river.
1) Tribus (Campus) Hatti. No Hatti tribes on this territory at this time frame. Turingians or Sorabs a most probable ot this territory. I think the most relevant and neutral name is Boghemia (Boioheamum) - non-German and non-Slavic
2) Tribus (Campus) Burgundi. Burgundi on these territories did not live constantly, but passed by (like Gothic tribes) in 2th AD, not in 5th AD. Since Tacitus time on this territories have mentioned tribes like Rugii, Venedae, Veltae, Borusci, etc. I have two versions: Tribus (Campus) Rugii or Tribus (Campus) Veltae
3) Tribus (Campus) Lombardi. Lombardi really were here, but "passed by". Since 5th AD this territories (headwaters of the Oder and Visla rivers) were occupied such tribes as Horvati and Serbi (Sorabs). I think Tribus (Campus) Sorabs. I do not insist on this version, but I think, it is more relevant than 'lombardi'.
4) Tribus (Campus) Quadi. By 5th AD Quadi have moved to the west: the lands between Turingians and Noric. As Sorabs (Serbs), that occupied headwaters of the Oder river, Horvati tribes were occupied headwaters of the Visla river. My opinion - Tribus (Campus) Horvati.
5) Tribus (Campus) Sciri. As Quadi tribes the Sciri tribes by 5th AD Quadi have moved to the west: the lands between Turingians and Noric. The territory marked in mod as Tribus (Campus) Sciri was really the native territory of Venedae. This my version - Tribus (Campus) Venedae.
6) Tribus (Campus) Marcomani. Marcomani tribes have been never mentioned on the territories to the east of Oder river. My version is Tribus (Campus) Borusci or Prussia. According to the opinions of many historians Borusci were the ancestors of latest baltic tribes Prussians.

to be continued...

[Scolot]

Let's continue
7) Tribus (Campus) Vandali. There were not Vandal tribes on this territory. Archeologically are very expressed Baltic tribes. We don't know a name of this tribes. Thus Baltia or Tribus (Campus) Balti
8) Tomias, Pripets. Pripets is wellknown modern name. Tomias - I don't know what it mean. This region has been inhabited by slavic tribes long since. Volynians were known later in 6th AD, but many scientists make conclusion that Volynians were separate tribe alongside with Antes and Sklavenes at least since 5th AD. My version is Pripets (Tribus Volynians), Campus Volynians
9) Napoca, Tevrisci. I don't know at all what it is.:hmmm:
This region has been densely occupied by Antes tribe (Dnestr group). It is traced archeologically. My version is Tribus (Campus) Dnestr Antes
10) Sarmatia, vicus Sarmatae. The southern part of this region during several centuries was a haven for various tribes and peoples who were "passed by". Let it be as it is.
11) Locus (Campus) Barbaricum. This region has been inhabited by slavic tribes long since too. It is archeologically distinctly traced, that in 5th AD the territory of the future Kiev city has already been inhabited. My version is Kiev, Kiev (the same names)
12) Belsk, Helonus. Helonus - legendary name by great Herodorus. I like it 'Belskoe gorodishe' - is a modern name of big settlement of east Slavs. This region has been inhabited by Severa (Severyanians) - the most east part of Slavs - at least since 4th AD. My version is Helonus (Tribus Severa), Campus Severa
13) Lenkoran, Haltusus. Very familiar names, but they are not applied for this region. The nothern part of this region has been densely occupied by Antes (Dnepr group) tribes. The southern part was a "passed by" for many tribes and peoples. My version is Locus (Campus) Dnepr Antes

to be continued...

[Riothamus]

Scolots East European region corrections

500ad map is a little bit late but it should help.
Good work. I'll need a little time to go over this.
Thanks