Waterboarding, how can they even debate this anymore?

[Winter]

Honestly, I don't get this debate over waterboarding in the US. Its clearly torture, and has even been defined as such by senior members of the Bush administration. Former assistant attorney General Daniel Levin even personally underwent waterboarding, and said "Waterboarding is torture,".

For those of you who haven't been following the story, apparently the US has used waterboarding on at least 3 different occasions, including on Khalid Sheikh-Mohamed. Now the appointee for attorney general, Judge Michael Mukasey, refuses to tell the senate panel that will probably confirm him tomorrow whether or not he believes the hypothetical application of waterboarding is torture.

I think this commentary, by my favorite journalist Kieth Olbermann, sums up my opinion on the subject fairly well.

I'd post the entire transcript but its extremely long. Heres a sample.

It is a fact startling in its cynical simplicity and it requires cynical and simple words to be properly expressed: The presidency of George W. Bush has now devolved into a criminal conspiracy to cover the ass of George W. Bush.

All the petulancy, all the childish threats, all the blank-stare stupidity; all the invocations of World War III, all the sophistic questions about which terrorist attacks we wanted him not to stop, all the phony secrets; all the claims of executive privilege, all the stumbling tap-dancing of his nominees, all the verbal flatulence of his apologists...

All of it is now, after one revelation last week, transparently clear for what it is: the pathetic and desperate manipulation of the government, the refocusing of our entire nation, toward keeping this mock president and this unstable vice president and this departed wildly self-overrating attorney general, and the others, from potential prosecution for having approved or ordered the illegal torture of prisoners being held in the name of this country.

"Waterboarding is torture," Daniel Levin was to write. Daniel Levin was no theorist and no protester. He was no troublemaking politician. He was no table-pounding commentator. Daniel Levin was an astonishingly patriotic American and a brave man.

Brave not just with words or with stances, even in a dark time when that kind of bravery can usually be scared or bought off.
Charged, as you heard in the story from ABC News last Friday, with assessing the relative legality of the various nightmares in the Pandora's box that is the Orwell-worthy euphemism "Enhanced Interrogation," Mr. Levin decided that the simplest, and the most honest, way to evaluate them ... was to have them enacted upon himself.

Daniel Levin took himself to a military base and let himself be waterboarded.
Mr. Bush, ever done anything that personally courageous?
Perhaps when you've gone to Walter Reed and teared up over the maimed servicemen? And then gone back to the White House and determined that there would be more maimed servicemen?

Has it been that kind of personal courage, Mr. Bush, when you've spoken of American victims and the triumph of freedom and the sacrifice of your own popularity for the sake of our safety? And then permitted others to fire or discredit or destroy anybody who disagreed with you, whether they were your own generals, or Max Cleland, or Joe Wilson and Valerie Plame, or Daniel Levin?

Daniel Levin should have a statue in his honor in Washington right now.
Instead, he was forced out as acting assistant attorney general nearly three years ago because he had the guts to do what George Bush couldn't do in a million years: actually put himself at risk for the sake of his country, for the sake of what is right.

And they waterboarded him. And he wrote that even though he knew those doing it meant him no harm, and he knew they would rescue him at the instant of the slightest distress, and he knew he would not die — still, with all that reassurance, he could not stop the terror screaming from inside of him, could not quell the horror, could not convince that which is at the core of each of us, the entity who exists behind all the embellishments we strap to ourselves, like purpose and name and family and love, he could not convince his being that he wasn't drowning.

Waterboarding, he said, is torture. Legally, it is torture! Practically, it is torture! Ethically, it is torture! And he wrote it down.
Wrote it down somewhere, where it could be contrasted with the words of this country's 43rd president: "The United States of America ... does not torture."

Made you into a liar, Mr. Bush.

Made you into, if anybody had the guts to pursue it, a criminal, Mr. Bush.

Waterboarding had already been used on Khalid Sheik Mohammed and a couple of other men none of us really care about except for the one detail you'd forgotten — that there are rules. And even if we just make up these rules, this country observes them anyway, because we're Americans and we're better than that.

We're better than you....

[removeduser_487563287433]

Yes, it is probably torture. But I am not a US citizen so will not be doing anything about it on the chance that I get tortured and locked away forever without trial.

[Siblesz]

Yes, it is probably torture. But I am not a US citizen so will not be doing anything about it on the chance that I get tortured and locked away forever without trial.

It's torture. But hey... as long as we're playing this game, repression and civil war is called freedom in Iraq. And wild capitalism is called communism in China. But let's just all ignore the elephants in the room.

[danzig]

Hypothetical questions posed to supreme court or AG are just stupid since they leave it way too open so refusing to answer them is the best course of action regardless of who is up for the job or which political party/entity the questions are coming from. So the "debate" on waterboarding as far as the AG goes is much of a debate. The basis of judging whether one is qualified is on how they have ruled in the past not how they might see things some day under some specific conditions. And please Olbermann..you may as well be posting stuff from Coutler or Limbaugh or someone. Not much difference between him and O'Reilly other then the fact people actually watch O'Reilly.

as long as we're playing this game, repression and civil war is called freedom in Iraq. And wild capitalism is called communism in China. But let's just all ignore the elephants in the room.

Lets ignore the hypocrits too you know the ones who defend the actions of one country or another but condemn others. I suppose if the US cut the amount of time they used waterboarding on Khalid by say 50% they could declare a dramatic turn for the better.

[removeduser_487563287433]

Hypothetical questions posed to supreme court or AG are just stupid since they leave it way too open so refusing to answer them is the best course of action regardless of who is up for the job or which political party/entity the questions are coming from. So the "debate" on waterboarding as far as the AG goes is much of a debate. The basis of judging whether one is qualified is on how they have ruled in the past not how they might see things some day under some specific conditions. And please Olbermann..you may as well be posting stuff from Coutler or Limbaugh or someone. Not much difference between him and O'Reilly other then the fact people actually watch O'Reilly.

Dozens of IQ points. At least Olbermann uses vocabulary beyond the limits of an Alabama five year old.

[danzig]

Dozens of IQ points. At least Olbermann uses vocabulary beyond the limits of an Alabama five year old.

No afraid not since it comes down to political viewpoint on picking Olbermann over OReilly and nothing else...both make stupid, outlandish comments all the time, both despite denials are clearly biased and both are often guilty of misrepresenting someones viewpoints. The only REAL difference is that OReilly draws more retards to his festering pool of a tv show than Olbermann. I think you underestimate how stupid someone can sound when they are suggesting a conspiracy that of goverment officals, voting machine execs all working together to change the outcome of an election regardless of their vocabulary

[Siblesz]

Lets ignore the hypocrits too you know the ones who defend the actions of one country or another but condemn others.

Hypocrite
noun
a person who professes beliefs and opinions that he or she does not hold in order to conceal his or her real feelings or motives

-------------------------------------------------

By every measure of the word, a hypocrite is a person who denies doing something or saying something that in actuality they do or say, or a person who professes something while doing the opposite. It's ignoring the elephant in the room because it's inconvenient to aknowledge it. As far as I know, the U.S. government is an expert at this game. They're not even unconscious hypocrites - hypocrites that don't know they're being hypocritical. They're hypocrites that fully understand that they're hypocrites, but deny it anyway because it keeps the people at home stupid and patriotic.

As for your hidden message, I don't try to excuse my arguments with faulty interpretations whose foundations are hypocritical. When I see the elephant in the room, I aknowledge it... whether that means the plight of the Tibetans, the tragedies of Chile, the stupidities of Chavez, or the U.S. government's finely tuned double-speak.

Hypothetical questions posed to supreme court or AG are just stupid since they leave it way too open so refusing to answer them is the best course of action regardless of who is up for the job or which political party/entity the questions are coming from. So the "debate" on waterboarding as far as the AG goes is much of a debate. The basis of judging whether one is qualified is on how they have ruled in the past not how they might see things some day under some specific conditions.

No cruel or unusual punishment is under the Bill of Rights. It's not a hypothetical scenario. Torture is not justified under the Constitution. And if waterboarding is not torture, then I guess killing is not murder, and the sky is not blue.

[danzig]

As for your hidden message, I don't try to excuse my arguments with faulty interpretations whose foundations are hypocritical. When I see the elephant in the room, I aknowledge it... whether that means the plight of the Tibetans, the tragedies of Chile, the stupidities of Chavez, or the U.S. government's finely tuned double-speak.

Except you come down hard on the elephant that took a crap in the corner while deflecting some of the blame on the elephant that just took a leak under the guise of well atleast he didnt take a crap. They are both elephants and we cant hold them to different standards even if we so desperately wished that one elephant lived up to all his potential instead of squandering it by taking crap in other people's houses it is after all still an elephant with the same faults, same fears as any other elephant.

Ok think Ive taken the elephant thing far enough!

No cruel or unusual punishment is under the Bill of Rights. It's not a hypothetical scenario. Torture is not justified under the Constitution. And if waterboarding is not torture, then I guess killing is not murder, and the sky is not blue.

What I mean is the questioning, congress members do this all the time they are trying to box someone into a corner. A simple do you think torture is justified or legal would be enough but its not. Instead its always vaguley worded scenarios and by politicans trying to score points on someone they know they cant vote down. It happens all the time and what do we have to show for it? We dont know his views on it, they didnt stop him in committee so he'll get up and down vote (and probably pass). Its why asking questions like this is just dumb because it gives us no actual insight or information. All we got is ah ha he didnt answer...well yeah of course he didnt answer because you cant expect anyone in that position to answer such a question posed in such a manner about pretty much any subject.

God, America has to go and take a good hard look at itself...

Remember David Hicks? Held for four years without even being charged.

No we dont since you would have to assume all of us are going around going wheee waterboarding sounds like fun. I mean it IS torture and alot of americans know/feel the same way so nothing for us to look at unfortunately our goverment does stupid things. Myself Im a bit mor pragamtic about the torture stuff, if it proved to work (and by almost all expert accounts it doesnt) then I wouldnt necessarily object to it. I wont attempt to morally justify it, it is wrong and I know that but if you told me someone like Khalid Mohammed had information and the only way to get it out of him was torturing him Id say go right ahead. Since it is viewed as ineffective getting our goverments hands dirty with such a immoral act just makes no sense.

[Siblesz]

Except you come down hard on the elephant that took a crap in the corner while deflecting some of the blame on the elephant that just took a leak under the guise of well atleast he didnt take a crap. They are both elephants and we cant hold them to different standards even if we so desperately wished that one elephant lived up to all his potential instead of squandering it by taking crap in other people's houses it is after all still an elephant with the same faults, same fears as any other elephant.

Ok think Ive taken the elephant thing far enough!

I agree, and I'm glad we both aknowledge the elephants in the room, then. Now that they're clearly visible, then which one is more detrimental: one who craps in his house, or one who craps in his house and in all the neighborhood's houses as well?

What I mean is the questioning, congress members do this all the time they are trying to box someone into a corner. A simple do you think torture is justified or legal would be enough but its not. Instead its always vaguley worded scenarios and by politicans trying to score points on someone they know they cant vote down. It happens all the time and what do we have to show for it? We dont know his views on it, they didnt stop him in committee so he'll get up and down vote (and probably past). Its why asking questions like this is just dumb because it gives us no actual insight or information. All we got is ah ha he didnt answer...well yeah of course he didnt answer because you cant expect anyone in that position to answer such a question possed in such a manner about pretty much any subject.

True enough.

[Last Roman]

[but deny it anyway because it keeps the people at home stupid and patriotic nationalists.

ah, there we go

[Medicus]

God, America has to go and take a good hard look at itself...

Remember David Hicks? Held for four years without even being charged.

[removeduser_487563287433]

Outlandish and partisan, sure, but to say they're on equal intellectual footing is laughable.

[Winter]

Certainly it does come down to political viewpoint when picking olbermann over o'reily, but what other choice is there? There isn't a, to quote fox, "fair and balanced" anchor out there, as there's always someone who has a problem with him or her.

Olbermann in my mind is better because he just makes more sense. He may not to you because you may be conservative, but O'rielly and Hannity make absolutley no sense to me.

[Big War Bird]

delete

[Big War Bird]

You are calling Keith Olbermann a journalist?! He's a pathetic partisan hack.

Dozens of IQ points. At least Olbermann uses vocabulary beyond the limits of an Alabama five year old.

Big words make me sleepy.

[Kanaric]

You are calling Keith Olbermann a journalist?! He's a pathetic partisan hack.

And the people on Fox News are?????

What about talk radio as wel?

It goes both ways, and he is more "normal" then fools like O'Reilly that thinks he knows more about bears than bear experts.


On waterboarding, military dictatorships use it to torture political dissidents. We give them the excuse to use it, we can't call it torture or fight against these people politically simply because we do it as well. Bush removed our high moral ground that we used to be able to cite.

[mrmouth]

Yes, by all means shed a tear for bad people getting treated like shite. I could care less if these guys get waterboarded, hell I'll volunteer to do it to them myself.

We don't live in this cozy little world some people apparently think we do, and if you think the US is the only Western country doing this your mistaken. This is just another thing to throw your weight behind and act outraged over. All the injustice and mistreatment in the world, and yet we always find ourselves debating the US' tactics while at war. Compare the number of threads about he US to the number of threads about genocide.

I think its BS, I don't think people here actually give a crap about the Iraqis, Afghans or waterboarding, its simply another thing to climb atop your soapbox and cry about. This idea that we are lowering ourselves to their level is absurd. This world doesn't allow for the no-spine attitudes of Western Democracies and of people like yourselves, there are necessary evils, and its only going to get more hard to swallow over time, so you'd better harden up a bit.

repression and civil war is called freedom in Iraq.

you cant possibly be that dense.

[Siblesz]

hell I'll volunteer to do it to them myself.

How bout you volunteer to do it to you?

[mrmouth]

How bout you volunteer to do it to you?

how do people take you seriously here?

[Rapax]

Yes, by all means shed a tear for bad people getting treated like shite. I could care less if these guys get waterboarded, hell I'll volunteer to do it to them myself.

We don't live in this cozy little world some people apparently think we do, and if you think the US is the only Western country doing this your mistaken. This is just another thing to throw your weight behind and act outraged over. All the injustice and mistreatment in the world, and yet we always find ourselves debating the US' tactics while at war. Compare the number of threads about he US to the number of threads about genocide.

I think its BS, I don't think people here actually give a crap about the Iraqis, Afghans or waterboarding, its simply another thing to climb atop your soapbox and cry about. This idea that we are lowering ourselves to their level is absurd. This world doesn't allow for the no-spine attitudes of Western Democracies and of people like yourselves, there are necessary evils, and its only going to get more hard to swallow over time, so you'd better harden up a bit.



you cant possibly be that dense.

Thank you, Col. Jessep.