AI & Horse-Archers

[Lupu]

Due to horse archers being important in BC, will the AI know how to handle them?
I hope so because I dont want my cyckpak enemy to run his elie horse archers in front of my archers and after that skirmish away from my light turkomans
Thats not fun.

[Miraj]

GrandViz has coded some new behaviour for HA units in battle, increasing distances at which the AI HAs maintains itself and such. So its definitely better. I can't really say anything further than that since I haven't had the chance to play as many HA armies, but they do give me a lot of casualties now more than before.

However, the AI is still the AI... so don't expect them to make the most efficient use of their HAs as a human would.

[KonFuse-Q]

What's up everyone, I've been observing the progress of this mod and the forums for quite some time now, but never actually posted anything for some reason. So, I guess I'll post something now...

SO, ummm...Guess I should comment on the great progress this mod is making, It seems to be crafted together quite well from what I've seen so far. Also, the speed in which it's been developed by the BC team is very professional, condsidering BC is just a hobby to you guys. I know you guys have heard this praise before, but you guys are really doing an impressive job with the MTW engine, so I guess I'll say it again.

Anyways, I've been wondering if the implementation of a alternate horse-archer fire mode (volley fire I beleive it was) has made any progress. I know this has been discussed before in several different threads, so forgive me if this question has already been answered.

Also, when fighting the Great Seljuks in your past and present Beta campaigns, have you noticed if Grand Viz's Ai can use the close-bow Horse archers in particular effectively? Can they skirmish correctly? I don't assume the Ai would be able to use them to their fullest potential like a human player, and I have no doubt that Grand Viz has improved the normal horse archers. However, since the close-bows do have to get closer to the enemy, the Ai might have some problems keeping them useful because of the distances they are set to maintain.

[Ahiga]

Volley Fire has been shelved for now, not for any complications or difficulties in it, but simply on the fact that we haven't attempted it yet. Given it would require some thinking to develop, it's something we might look at post 1.0. I'm interested in seeing it, as it would be very useful towards our heavier Horse Archers (having them fight as they historically did). It'd afford a great depth in Horse-archery, with heavy horse archers serving as the perfect deterrent to lighter horse archers (Particularly close bows).

Regarding Close bows, I can't say for sure. I think the AI would handle it well, as the distance is roughly equivalent to that of a javelin-cavalrymen, and those guys do rather well.

Welcome to the forums and I hope you enjoy your stay here, and the mod once it releases.

[Valdamar]

Welcome to the forums and I hope you enjoy your stay here, and the mod once it releases.

*starts to ask a question then notices the evil eye glares*

[KonFuse-Q]

Thanks Ahiga, for both the welcome and the quick response.

Well, I'm glad the volley fire concept is still being considered for future versions of BC. From the way it was described, it would add much more tactical variety to horse archer units, and would make battles against horse archer factions much more challenging...

However, I was under the impression that some work had already begun developing the volley fire fuction (however slight), I didn't know that you guys were holding off on this until 1.0 was released. This is fair, of course. If you guys pursued every idea that came to mind, the mod would never be completed.

If/when you guys get around to implementing this function, where would you begin? What files might be modified? It seems like it has to be more complicated than just adjusting unit attributes (speed, mass, etc), but is there a rate-of-fire option that can be modified to achieve a volley fire effect? Would you have to incorporate a new horse archer firing animation?

About the close bows, I guess I assumed that they had to get much closer than your average javelin cavalry to get in range to fire. But now that I think about it, they are armed with decent bows, and they're certainly not blind, so they shouldn't have to get up into their enemies faces at point blank to get a good shot off.

[Miraj]

I'm hoping that Strelac in all his wonderful talent will be able to create a new volley fire "animation".

My basic idea is that heavier horse archers be able to only fire arrows when either still or marching but not when they gallop. Also if possible to perhaps 'turn off' the backward parthian shot ability for volley fire too. On the flip side I'd like to boost the range, power and rate of fire for volley fire units.

Like you said, it will add tonnes of tactical variety in using horse archers. Of course the technical possibility of this has barely been discussed, so we'll have to wait and see.

[CelticPagan]

I'm hoping that Strelac in all his wonderful talent will be able to create a new volley fire "animation".

My basic idea is that heavier horse archers be able to only fire arrows when either still or marching but not when they gallop. Also if possible to perhaps 'turn off' the backward parthian shot ability for volley fire too. On the flip side I'd like to boost the range, power and rate of fire for volley fire units.

Like you said, it will add tonnes of tactical variety in using horse archers. Of course the technical possibility of this has barely been discussed, so we'll have to wait and see.

According to Osprey's Mounted Archers of the Steppe 600 BC(E) - AD (CE) 1300, the range of steppe composit bows could reach over 520 meters (~1,740 feet), though they were mostly used at a more practicle 175 meters (~575 feet), with a lethal (nearly every shot would kill) range of 50-60 meters (as Ahiga has proposed with his "Close Bow" idea). The archers themselves would carry 30-150 arrows per assault, and had fresh quivers awaiting them behind the lines where troops dedicated to having fresh mounts, arrows and weapons ready were stationed. Additionally, they also shot at up to a 45 degree angle so the arrows fell straight down on the heads of their opponents, or over walls (like the siege weapons, the Culvern and the Mortar did). Almost all Turkic and Mongolian archer were also trained to fire an average 12 arrows per minute.

See also:

• Historia Tartaronum, by C. de Bridia
• The Alexaid of Anna Comnera, by Anna Comnera
• Warfare in Inner Asian History (500-1800), edited by Nicola Di Cosmo
• The Empire of the Steppes: A History of Central Asia, Rene Grousset
• the research paper "Ancient Composit Bows", by C. N. Hickman in the Journal of the Society of Archer-Antiquarians, vol. 2, 1959

P.S. The Sultan Selim III, of the Ottoman Empire set the flight record of 889 meters (2,917 feet) using a modified composit bow.

[Salah-ud-Din]

Is it possible to do the coding such that the HAs do more damage the closer they are to the enemy?

[teh.frickin.pope]

Not possible but some horse archers have a high attack and possibly Ap with only the range of a javelin.

[Basileos]

Will the ERE have (good)horse archers?

[Ahiga]

They won't have any horse archers, but rather will have access to a sizable mercenary pool of foreign (Cuman, Turkoman, turkopole) horse archers.

We chose to go with a more distinct rendition of the ERE in our mod, and as such, reflect an army stronger in infantry and later cataphracts than in horse archery. Historically, I tend to see a different depiction depending on the source, but it seems the Byzantines of our mod's era had poorer or lighter infantry with more cavalry. Thus, by sacrificing native horse archers in our mod they gain better armored and quality infantry than they might have historically had at this point. Their Horse archers, apparently in history often foreign troops recruited for service, are reflected in the mercenary roster the Byz will have access to.

Nothing is born out of fantasy, with everything having a historical inspiration or influence - we just do not aim to imitate it.

[Fenix_120]

I remember the very first time I fought real horse archers in RTW, I was Scipii and the enemies were Armenia.


I killed them all with out losing more than ten men, most of my units were early legion backed up by mercenary skirmishers.

The hard units to beat were the heavy spear men and generals body guard.






Then I remember the first time I fought human controlled horse archers...

Different story, although I still managed to beat him in the end by using better battle tactics but I lost some 500 men to those damn pink pajama wearing horse men and did not have the man power to defeat his armored elephant spamming ally.



Something about 1000 armored elephants charging at you makes you want to run for some odd reason.

[Basileos]

ok i understand.but i thougt it would be cool to have horse archers in roman style.maybe you can add the vanila byzantine cavalry in their mercenary pool.and are the turkopoles going to be the same as the turkopoles of the KoJ(=very nice unit!)?

[Ahiga]

I'm afraid the problem with adding any horse archers to Byzantium is it would unbalance things in their favor. We have to measure the Byzantines up to their prospective foes and allies (The Armenians, Georgians, and Rum turks). For Byzantium to have an easily recruitable horse archer means they have something that was originally Georgia's/Armenia's/Rum Turk's, on top of the other inherent advantages Byzantium holds which the other faction's might not have.

Basically each faction in their region needs something that keeps them more distinct.

• Heavy Horse Archer's are one of Georgia's. [Armenia/Rum only get Medium]
• Light HA are Armenia/Rum.
• Pikemen are Byzantine (only -one- other faction might get pikes, and that's the Abbasids due to Abna using them.)
• Early access to javelin cavalry is Byzantine/Rum Turk
• Early access (Before tier 3) to lancers is Byzantine
• Hybrid Medium & Heavy javelineers are Armenian [Byzantine's Anti-Horse javelins are light-medium, and more 'javelinmen with a spear' than 'sword infantry with a javelin' the way Armenia's are.
• Early (Before tier 5) cataphracts are Byzantium's.
• Cataphract's with AP Javelins and AP mace are Byzantine exclusive [nobody else gets it].

For the Byzantines to get Horse archers causes an issue where what had been a feature of their allies/enemies becomes a feature of their own now, and adds to an already strong roster. It would be equivalent to the Georgian's getting cataphract lancers on top of their heavy HA, or the Armenians getting a tier 1-2 lancer on top of their HA.

When playing Byzantium you will still get to use horse archers, they will just be mercenaries, and while you will be rich enough to afford quite a few of them, you will have to use them tactically - it won't be a case of fielding them liberally or relying on them for all-purposes the way Rum, Georgia, or Armenia might.

But yes, I believe one of their horse archer mercenaries will be the Turkopoles. Along with Western Turkomans, and Cuman Horse archers.

[Basileos]

ok i could live with that as (turkish (in the later empire))mercenaries played a large role in in the ERE.and the other byzantine units are so nice that they will compensate this lack .Are there going to be new turkomans?because i didn't really like the ones in vanila.

[Ahiga]

ok i could live with that as (turkish (in the later empire))mercenaries played a large role in in the ERE.and the other byzantine units are so nice that they will compensate this lack .Are there going to be new turkomans?because i didn't really like the ones in vanila.

Yup. Three of the Horse archers available to Byzantium in western anatolia/Byzantium are:

Turkomans (Western)


Northern Turkomans (Kypchaks, Cumans, and the like)


Cicilian Horse Archers (Armenians)


And I believe Turkopoles too.

[Basileos]

Much, MUCH BETTER!!!!.!!!turkomans are much better! thanks for posting these!

(ps:you guys are torturing us with those pictures and previews...very nice tortures!)

[Ahiga]

No problem. If you want to see other faction's rosters, check this topic:

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=97742

some of them are out of date, namely the Ghaznavids/Ghorids/rajputs, but they still give a good idea for the rosters and units.

[John I Tzimisces]

"Cilician" not "Cicilian"