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  1. #1

    Default Scientists create "super mice"

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTKtaECUk-Y



    American scientists have been successful in creating a batch of genetically modified "Super Mice". As the video demonstrates, these mice have vastly superior physical ability. I read in a newspaper that the human equivalent of what these mice can do would be a man riding a bicycle all the way up a mountain non-stop.
    The scientists have managed to make the mice so powerful by manipulating the part of their DNA which controls and dictates muscle mass.
    As far as I'm concerned, this is a remarkable achievement, and undoubtedly an important (albeit still very early) step toward better, faster human beings.

  2. #2
    Valentin the II's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Absolutely remarkable....

    Awesome!
    I want my genes to be modefied to.
    I really need more endurance, not to mension a longer and healthier life.
    Born to be wild - live to outgrow it (Lao Tzu)
    Someday you will die and somehow something's going to steal your carbon
    In contrast to the efforts of tiny Israel to make contributions to the world so as to better mankind, one has to ask what have those who have strived to eliminate Israel from the face of the earth done other than to create hate and bloodshed.

  3. #3
    NaptownKnight's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Absolutely remarkable....

    Quote Originally Posted by Valentin the II View Post
    Awesome!
    I want my genes to be modefied to.
    I really need more endurance, not to mension a longer and healthier life.
    I want a longer and healthier something else....



    jk

  4. #4
    Valentin the II's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Absolutely remarkable....

    Quote Originally Posted by NaptownKnight View Post
    I want a longer and healthier something else....



    jk
    Then go to a sergion.
    Im sure they'll be able to wip something up for you.
    Born to be wild - live to outgrow it (Lao Tzu)
    Someday you will die and somehow something's going to steal your carbon
    In contrast to the efforts of tiny Israel to make contributions to the world so as to better mankind, one has to ask what have those who have strived to eliminate Israel from the face of the earth done other than to create hate and bloodshed.

  5. #5
    Dylanesque's Avatar Decanus
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    Default Re: Absolutely remarkable....

    Hmm. Call me when the mice are good enough to genetically modify something smaller, like a shrew. THAT would be impressive.

    However, infinite endurance and strength would be cool.
    Life is just a ride...

  6. #6

    Default Re: Absolutely remarkable....

    Worryingly, it doesn't get smart enough to stop walking the threadmill so I guess it's intended for worker-types.

    How so more muscle-mass BTW? It looks normal - or did its brain and other organs shrink?

  7. #7

    Default Re: Absolutely remarkable....

    Sign me up.

    Six Million Dollar Man? Feh.


  8. #8
    Sosobra's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Absolutely remarkable....

    This is pretty cool and if it could be applied to humans could really shake things up .


    Worryingly, it doesn't get smart enough to stop walking the threadmill so I guess it's intended for worker-types.

    How so more muscle-mass BTW? It looks normal - or did its brain and other organs shrink?
    From the Independent
    The genetic alteration to a gene involved in glucose metabolism appears to stimulate the efficient use of body fat for energy production, The Independent reported, citing a study published in the Journal of Biological Chemistry.

    Also, the mice don't suffer from a build up of lactic acid which causes muscle cramps.

    So its not more muscle per say its better use of the existing.
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  9. #9

    Default Re: Absolutely remarkable....

    Quote Originally Posted by Sosobra View Post
    This is pretty cool and if it could be applied to humans could really shake things up .



    From the Independent
    The genetic alteration to a gene involved in glucose metabolism appears to stimulate the efficient use of body fat for energy production, The Independent reported, citing a study published in the Journal of Biological Chemistry.

    Also, the mice don't suffer from a build up of lactic acid which causes muscle cramps.

    So its not more muscle per say its better use of the existing.

    Yeah, apparently the world champion cyclist Lance Armstrong also benefits from not getting so much of a build up of lactic acid as normal people do, and this is part of the reason he has so much endurance. It means he does not suffer "muscle fatigue" in the same way as you or I.
    Last edited by Roman Rapper; November 03, 2007 at 06:09 PM.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Absolutely remarkable....

    Quote Originally Posted by Sosobra View Post
    This is pretty cool and if it could be applied to humans could really shake things up .



    From the Independent
    The genetic alteration to a gene involved in glucose metabolism appears to stimulate the efficient use of body fat for energy production, The Independent reported, citing a study published in the Journal of Biological Chemistry.

    Also, the mice don't suffer from a build up of lactic acid which causes muscle cramps.

    So its not more muscle per say its better use of the existing.
    Might be tempting to use this technique for evil though.



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  11. #11
    Sosobra's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Absolutely remarkable....

    Quote Originally Posted by mongrel View Post
    Might be tempting to use this technique for evil though.



    Rogue Trooper
    The same could be said about every advancement although as tech goes into the realm of Sci Fi , the good/bad spectrum swings further each direction.
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  12. #12

    Default Re: Absolutely remarkable....

    Quote Originally Posted by Sosobra View Post
    The same could be said about every advancement although as tech goes into the realm of Sci Fi , the good/bad spectrum swings further each direction.

    Agreed. The same people who now tell us we shouldn't use stem cells for research into easing human suffering will in 15-30 years time no doubt be telling us we shouldn't use this gene manipulation technology to create super-humans.

    You're right about it being true for practically every modern advancement, and you can even take it further back: When the Spinning Jenny (a mechanical device that could replace the labor of several people) was invented during the first tentative steps of Britain's industrial revolution, it was initially banned by the government, for fears of the number of people it would put out of work. Over the coming decades Britain saw the rise of the "Luddites": armed gangs who would jump at any opportunity to damage and destroy any "modern" technology they could get there hands on.

    The point is, no matter how outlandish the science, you cannot stop the march of progress.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Absolutely remarkable....

    Yeah, I guessed that was something more likely. Insects don't have lactic acid either, and never tire - plus more effective lungs (flies fan in extra air into vents during flight etc) in a lot of cases.

    Wonder what price that has. Usually everything in nature is a trade-off.

  14. #14
    Sosobra's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Absolutely remarkable....

    Quote Originally Posted by Spurius View Post
    Yeah, I guessed that was something more likely. Insects don't have lactic acid either, and never tire - plus more effective lungs (flies fan in extra air into vents during flight etc) in a lot of cases.

    Wonder what price that has. Usually everything in nature is a trade-off.
    The question to ask is why we have lactic acid build up to begin with? How does it benefit it us and if it doesn't can we live with out it . They only reason I can see is to conserve energy ie its your bodies way of telling you to slow down and save energy for the next time.

    edit

    from the wiki on Lactic acid

    During power-intensive exercises such as sprinting, when the rate of demand for energy is high, lactate is produced faster than the ability of the tissues to remove it and lactate concentration begins to rise. This is a beneficial process since the regeneration of NAD+ ensures that energy production is maintained and exercise can continue. The increased lactate produced can be removed in a number of ways including: oxidation to pyruvate by well-oxygenated muscle cells which is then directly used to fuel the citric acid cycle and conversion to glucose via the Cori cycle in the liver through the process of gluconeogenesis.

    Contrary to popular belief, this increased concentration of lactate does not directly cause acidosis, nor is it responsible for delayed onset muscle soreness.[1] This is because lactate itself is not capable of releasing a proton, and secondly, the acidic form of lactate, lactic acid, cannot be formed under normal circumstances in human tissues. Analysis of the glycolytic pathway in humans indicates that there are not enough hydrogen ions present in the glycolytic intermediates to produce lactic or any other acid.

    The acidosis that is associated with increases in lactate concentration during heavy exercise arises from a separate reaction. When ATP is hydrolysed, a hydrogen ion is released. ATP-derived hydrogen ions are primarily responsible for the decrease in pH. During intense exercise, aerobic metabolism cannot produce ATP quickly enough to supply the demands of the muscle. As a result, anaerobic metabolism becomes the dominant energy producing pathway as it can form ATP at high rates. Due to the large amounts of ATP being produced and hydrolysed in a short period of time, the buffering systems of the tissues are overcome, causing pH to fall and creating a state of acidosis. This may be one factor, among many, that contributes to the acute muscular discomfort experienced shortly after intense exercise.[citations needed]

    The effect of lactate on acidosis has been the topic of many recent conferences in the field of exercise physiology. Robergs et al. have accurately chased the proton movement that occurs during glycolysis. However, in doing so, they have suggested that [H+] is an independent variable that determines its own concentration. A recent review by Lindinger et al.[citation needed] has been written to rebut the stoichiometric approach used by Robergs et al (2004).[1] In using this stoichiometric process, Robergs et al. have ignored the causitive factors (independent variables) of the concentration of hydrogen ions (denoted [H+]). These factors are strong ion difference [SID], PCO2, and weak acid buffers. Lactate is a strong anion, and causes a reduction in [SID] which causes and increase in [H+] to maintain electroneutrality. PCO2 also causes an increase in [H+]. During exercise, the intramuscular lactate concentration and PCO2 increase, causing an increase in [H+], and thus a decrease in pH. (See Le Chatelier's principle)
    Last edited by Sosobra; November 03, 2007 at 06:29 PM.
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  15. #15

    Default Re: Absolutely remarkable....

    Quote Originally Posted by Sosobra View Post
    The question to ask is why we have lactic acid build up to begin with? How does it benefit it us and if it doesn't can we live with out it . They only reason I can see is to conserve energy ie its your bodies way of telling you to slow down and save energy for the next time.
    Yep, that's the kind of thinking I like - the 'benefit' might be entirely elsewhere, like in behaviour.

    I noticed the 'normal' mouse never got back on the tread. It apparently lost interest. When DOES the other stop? Ever? Or will it continue till it dies, if not taken off? In nature, could it find back its home?

    Questions, questions?

  16. #16

    Default Re: Absolutely remarkable....

    Quote Originally Posted by Sosobra View Post
    The question to ask is why we have lactic acid build up to begin with? How does it benefit it us and if it doesn't can we live with out it . They only reason I can see is to conserve energy ie its your bodies way of telling you to slow down and save energy for the next time.
    We have lactic acid because we have anaerobic metabolism. The oxygen-delivery capacity of our circulatory system is limited; thus we have the ability to have our muscles continue working even in oxygen limited states. By using only glycolysis (which doesn't require oxygen), we can continue to produce ATP for use by myocytes. The byproduct of this pathway is lactic acid. It's simply the harsh rules of chemistry.
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  17. #17

    Default Re: Absolutely remarkable....

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fish View Post
    The byproduct of this pathway is lactic acid. It's simply the harsh rules of chemistry.
    I wonder if these mice produce huge quantities of epinephrine. IIRC that made quite the difference in frogs.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Absolutely remarkable....

    Quote Originally Posted by Spurius View Post
    Wonder what price that has. Usually everything in nature is a trade-off.
    Presumably, the more muscle mass you have the more you have to eat.

    Been a while since I took biology, but I believe this is the case with birds. More muscle mass for their weight than mammals (think hummingbirds), and as a result they eat more than mammals.

    It also probably has less fat tissue, which has it's own host of disadvantages.
    Last edited by ajm317; November 06, 2007 at 12:19 AM.

  19. #19
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    Default Re: Absolutely remarkable....

    Quote Originally Posted by Medi Rapper View Post
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTKtaECUk-Y



    American scientists have been successful in creating a batch of genetically modified "Super Mice". As the video demonstrates, these mice have vastly superior physical ability. I read in a newspaper that the human equivalent of what these mice can do would be a man riding a bicycle all the way up a mountain non-stop.
    The scientists have managed to make the mice so powerful by manipulating the part of their DNA which controls and dictates muscle mass.
    As far as I'm concerned, this is a remarkable achievement, and undoubtedly an important (albeit still very early) step toward better, faster human beings.
    Good, now we can pit them against the transparent Japanese frogs. We could have a TV show like those RobotWars things, except with genetically modified animals!

  20. #20
    Thanatos's Avatar Now Is Not the Time
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    Default Re: Absolutely remarkable....

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    Good, now we can pit them against the transparent Japanese frogs. We could have a TV show like those RobotWars things, except with genetically modified animals!
    You know what?

    That would actually be AWESOME.

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