what makes something a new unit?

[Inhuman One]

Since the unit limit has been reached I wonder about something: what makes something a new unit?

Lets take feudal knights for example. As far as I understand it, they are not a new unit when having a different skin.

but what about the following changes?

Will a different model make them a new unit?

Will a different name make them a new unit?

Will different status make them a new unit?

When I really understand what will and will not make a new unit, I might have a far better perspective about what units could and could not be added, and so would others on this forum and could result in good ideas being given.

[Caesar Clivus]

Different model: yes. Each unit can only have one model but multiple skins

Different name: yes. A unit can have only one name.

Different status:...what do you mean by status exactly?

The unit limit is the entries in the EDU. Each entry = 1 unit. Each entry needs models & skins designated to it in the modeldb file, as well as a name and description in the export_units.txt file.

[whhyy]

Different model: yes. Each unit can only have one model but multiple skins

Lots of units get more models when they upgrade, e.g Feudal knights getting plate armor.

[Caesar Clivus]

Lots of units get more models when they upgrade, e.g Feudal knights getting plate armor.

Yes but that is a different armor level, not two different models for the same unit. Every faction still has to use that model too. A unit cannot use different models for each faction.

[Inhuman One]

Well generic names and wildly differing skins can give some more freedom then perhaps.

Maybe some helmets could be reskinned for some factions too, adding patterns, small designs, perhaps some gold or silver decorations or such. Usually the helmets stay the same with the new skins after all.

[Henry X]

We could free up two slots if we called the Light Swordsmen class just light swordsmen instead of Light Men-at-Arms etc.

[Fenix_120]

1, add all the artillery thats separated by culture into one unit, you can then give that one unit the different "skins" for each faction.

(IE even though England and Frances catapult crew are the "same" English crews are red and French crews are blue, so why not make them the same unit with English catapults using the Red European skin and the Mongols catapult crew using the Mongol skins!)


(this will be a lot of work but will free up at least 15 unit slots)


2, add some of the Knights into one unit as well, Instead of having Eastern Chivalric Knights for Polish and Hungary, and East eastern Chivalric Knights for Luthalania, and Western Chivalric Knights for Denmark, France, Etc, Merge them into ONE unit called "Chivalric Knights" and give all the factions their own skins, this will free up two unit slots.



EDIT:The Mongols have two archers units, one dismounted archers and the other is called Mongol foot archers, in Vanilla they were the same unit in stainless ones slightly better than the other, but they both have the exact same skin, get rid of the weaker one.


I like the idea of Merging Light swordsmen and Light Men-At-Arms into one unit, you don't even have to change their skins or helmets thanks to the model system, just roll them into one "Unit" I know this can be done because the Scottish light swordsman has scale armor and the Spanish one has brigadine if you care to load up a game and look for yourselves.


Mabey Dismounted Boyar sons can have slightly less melee stats than Dismounted Druiza but modded to throw javelins before they charge, because really if the unit has the exact same stats then one should be removed for the sake of modding.

I'm for removing the peasant archers and leaving just archer militia( by the time you count the cultures this will free up two or three unit slots)


Once again, Archer militia and peasant archers are separated by culture, they could be modded into one unit(the only disadvantage this would have is that if France bribed an Egyptian army instead of disbanding the units would join France and suddenly turn white of skin and blue of cloths, but I can live with this if it means more unique units)


Spear militia is separate by culture as well, they could be the same unit with different skins.


I'm also for removing the normal old peasant units, they are not only not historically correct (peasants armed with pitchforks were more of a Napoleon thing than a Medieval one) but no one but the Ai uses them, that will also free up 5 unit slots.




Just a few more thoughts on the matter.

[Severloh]

And with these slots we have maybe two more factions? Or some more interesting units?

Great ideas indeed!

[Inhuman One]

Could some factions be restricted to less armor upgrades for the same unit? Or getting different models for an upgrade?

An other option would be to remove higher level armories for factions that werent too skilled with armor to keep things a bit different. All factions still seem to get heavily armored units without armor upgrades after all.

This could also give strategic value to cities/castles with a high level armory, those that cant have that building would want to capture that city to upgrade some units.

[Caesar Clivus]

Could some factions be restricted to less armor upgrades for the same unit? Or getting different models for an upgrade?

Wouldn't make any difference to the number of units in-game. Armor upgrades are entries in the modeldb, not new units in the EDU. Hypothetically you could have 50 armor upgrades for one unit, but only need 1 unit entry in the EDU.

Remember, it is not the number of models that is limited, but the number of units.

[Inhuman One]

So we can have units looking different then for faction groups by giving for example, some imperial knights an extra upgrade to advanced plate or giving them one less which would keep them in partial plate?

[Lusted]

So we can have units looking different then for faction groups by giving for example, some imperial knights an extra upgrade to advanced plate or giving them one less which would keep them in partial plate?

All factions that have a unit will gety the same number of armour upgrades for a unit.

Best way to explain this is to show you the entry for a unit in the EDU:

type             Mailed Knights
dictionary       Mailed_Knights      ; Mailed Knights
category         cavalry
class            heavy
voice_type       Heavy
banner faction   main_cavalry
banner holy      crusade_cavalry
soldier          Mailed_Knights, 24, 0, 1
mount            heavy horse
mount_effect     elephant -4, camel -4
attributes       sea_faring, hide_forest, can_withdraw, can_formed_charge, knight
formation        2, 4.4, 3, 6, 3, square, wedge
stat_health      1, 0
stat_pri         8, 5, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, piercing, spear, 25, 1
;stat_pri_ex      0, 0, 0
stat_pri_attr    no
stat_sec         9, 3, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, piercing, sword, 25, 1
;stat_sec_ex      0, 0, 0
stat_sec_attr    no
stat_pri_armour  3, 4, 6, metal
;stat_armour_ex   3, 5, 0, 0, 4, 6, 6, metal
stat_sec_armour  0, 0, flesh
stat_heat        6
stat_ground      0, 0, 0, 2
stat_mental      9, low, trained
stat_charge_dist 45
stat_fire_delay  0
stat_food        60, 300
stat_cost        1, 670, 185, 80, 185, 670, 3, 200
armour_ug_levels 2, 3
armour_ug_models Mailed_Knights, Mailed_Knights_ug1
ownership        england, scotland, france, hre, spain, portugal, milan, venice, papal_states, sicily, slave, normans
era 0            england, scotland, france, hre, spain, portugal, milan, venice, papal_states, sicily,
era 1            england, scotland, france, hre, spain, portugal, milan, venice, papal_states, sicily,
era 2            scotland
;unit_info        8, 0, 13
recruit_priority_offset    0

That is what a unit entry is, so a unit has it's name, it's stats, it's armour upgrades for all the factions that have it.

[That_Guy]

Fenix_120 had a really good idea with the artillery cause if you look in the EDU you'll notice that the number of artillery entries is absurd for the only difference in the model being the crewmans hat or something else equally minor. So as fenix suggested why not merge all the artilley units into one entry for each type with a generic crew model which with some creative skining could be made to look quite unique for each faction. thus freeing up a enough entrys for a full new faction(if KK so chose to use them that way).

[Inhuman One]

Well making more unit slots free wont allow to increase the faction limit. It will allow more unique units to be added though. Like perhaps the captain unit which I have suggested in another thread.

Considering armor upgrades, if lets say scotland would not be able to build the last few versions of the armory, this would restrict them from upgrading some units, and in result will make them appear a little different.

This might also be a good way to reflect that some factions where better with armor than others. Italy was good with it for example.

I believe all factions have some units that are quite armored without upgrades either way so it wouldnt limit them too much.

[That_Guy]

Well I didn't think about the faction limit, but still it'd save a lot of space for new stuff. About the restricted armor though, I don't really like the idea of restricting the armor of a faction just because they were not known for their armor. For example Scotland historically didn't have many soldiers with heavy armor because they couldn't afford it since scotland wasn't known for it vast riches. So mabye restrict the armor by making the armory level dependant on the region not the faction. So lets say Scotland conquers a region that was rather prosperous or known for its armorers they would logically then use this newfound wealth or the skilled craftsmen present to get better armor.

[Byg]

Well I didn't think about the faction limit, but still it'd save a lot of space for new stuff. About the restricted armor though, I don't really like the idea of restricting the armor of a faction just because they were not known for their armor. For example Scotland historically didn't have many soldiers with heavy armor because they couldn't afford it since scotland wasn't known for it vast riches. So mabye restrict the armor by making the armory level dependant on the region not the faction. So lets say Scotland conquers a region that was rather prosperous or known for its armorers they would logically then use this newfound wealth or the skilled craftsmen present to get better armor.

Very interesting, but, slightly off topic, is that a lagostomus maximus in your avatar?

[Fenix_120]

As Lusted pointed out all skins/factions get the same amount of armor upgrades for the same unit.


What I was pointing out was that their are several units that are "Cloned" that could be merged into one single unit, you would do this by adding one of the units skins and cards into another unit and then allowing the faction which had its unit removed to build the new unit using the removed units skins.

Their is no limit to how many skins a unit can have, take mailed Knights for an example, how many factions can train mailed Knights?

12?

thats 12 skins.

Mailed Knights get an armor upgrade.

Thats 24 skins.


Now take Chivalric Knights, four factions can train Chivalric Knights,

France, Spain, Denmark, Norway

by the time you count upgrades thats 8 skins.

Eastern Chivalric Knights can be trained by Hungary and now that I think about the polish actually get their own Polish Knight unit.

Luthalania gets a Eastern Chivalric Knight but it is a different unit than Hungary's.

This would be ok if the units were unique but aside from the Polish Knight being slightly tougher currently they all have pretty much the same stats give or take a point on attack or defense.

What I am recommending(not demanding) is that units such as this be removed and merged into other similar units.

For an example.

Remove both of the the Eastern Chivalric Knights and Polish Knights from the game.

Take those units skins and add them into the normal Chivalric Knights.

Then make it where the factions that lost a unit can build Chivalric Knight with the proper skin, their for the new Chivalric Knights would look like Polish Knights when trained by Poland.


Q: what about other similar units? Such as Polish nobles and Boyar sons?

A: Polish nobles and Boyar sons really do not have all that in common, I mean yeah their both heavy mounted javelins but thats about where the similarities end, the artillery units and Chivalric Knights of all forms are pretty much the same units.

Notice in my Chivalric Knight example I excluded English and Imperial Knights, these units are too different to be merged, one has an axe the other a mace.

Italian Men-at-arms have four armor levels, chivalric Knights have only two, so they can't be merged.

This would be a ton of work but it's the only way someone can make room for more units without totally removing units from the game.

Armor upgrades are skins, not units, a unit can have as many skins added into it as you can code.



Smiley Pike men formation

[King Kong]

Thanks Fenix and That Guy for the lot of good suggestions!
And thanks Inhuman one for this thread!

That gives me some good hints if I'll need more unit slots, though I have found a few units that can be just deleted/replaced without loosing a "unique" unit.
This should free enough slots for the next faction (which will be very "unique" btw )
I.e some mercenaries like the highland pikemen mercs can be replaced by the original highand pikemen.

[Henry X]

One could get rid of the Town Militia unit, and just make the Spear Militia could be made recruitable sooner to repace the absence of the militia.

[That_Guy]

@ Fenix_120 unless I'm mistaken(which as I'm not modder is quite possible) you couldn't merge polish and chivalric knights and have the polish knights look just like before as the polish knights have a different shaped shield which makes it a different model not skin. but then I don't think shield shape matters that much so axe them

@ Byg it was one topic with one Inhuman one's posts about not letting certain factions build the high level armorys earlier in this thread and sorry Byg it's just a ground hog or something, I took that picture in Glacier National Park up in Washington State a couple years ago.