De Republica, or What is wrong with the senate

[Winter]

I'll cut to the chase because frankly I'm rather tired. This game was NOT designed for parties, and TBH they were not factored in to the initial planning stages at all.

What we have seen in the past few weeks and undoubtedly will continue to see are boring, predictable elections. Everyone votes on party lines because of the simple fact that they have absolutely no reason not to. That is, unless something like the BBC comes along and takes over, but you know my position on that and I hardly think restating it again is necessary.

The scary thing is now what is happening is cookie-cutter votes in the senate, driven by these party politics. Now , I don't want to hear "Winter, you foolish half-witted moron! There are parties in real politics now, aren't there?" Yes there are, but this as I have stated was not designed for parties. These endless, unnecessary, un-followable bills are cluttering up the senate and are being passed by massive majorities. Things like the Colonia act, which actually makes mandatory demands for sending a certain amount of colonists to EVERY CITY CONQUERED. We are playing with one turn recruitment, do you know how long that would take?

Now I bring up the endless bills because I find it to be a part of the larger problem with the political parties. Once these parties become established, they start churning out these laws, one can only assume because they measure their manliness by the amount of clauses they can pack into one post. The game it is true encouraged alliances between players but not full out parties. These parties are now allying which brings up another issue.

The BBC (how I shall from now on refer to the optimate-populares 'alliance') as many in my party know have been a major issue. We see this as a takeover of the senate by one party, myself as a powergrab by a few individuals using their parties as the vehicle to accomplish their goals. This is fine, I certainly like the underhanded. However, when you go so far as to actually make it clear that you are trying to exclude a certain party from an election, that is what worries me. And yes, you said it, but I will not reveal who specifically told me (you know who you are). The object of the elections is not to secure the save for the select few for another few turns, but to get more and more people involved, and ready to play. That is the way we can grow the senate to its true potential!

In short, I feel that these political parties are standing in the way of what this AAR can become. We don't need them. We didn't need them. We need to start fresh.

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Sorry but I had to get that out. I meant that to be more eloquent but I wrote it in about five minutes and the only thing keeping me up is red bull and left over adrenaline from a midnight lacrosse game (don't try one, it doesn't work)

Winter.

[sanada]

I must sadly agree - as much as Parties add to the roll playing of this game, they do slow it down and add predictability into the mix.

I have discussed ways to impose limits on the parties, and each idea would either not work, or would be too hard to implement.

• Restricting the members in a Party to 4 members
• Positions NOT held by a party Determines there size
• Positions held by a party Determines there size

There are many more, and If we don't see any of them implemented then the Parties may have to be abolished all together.

Some Bills however I welcome, but yes they should be simplified.

This AAR wont die though...so don't worry

[Kritias]

De Contra Consordibus:
Against the Political Factions.

I am always of the opinion that we do mistakes in our life;Not every decision is bright,or even when it looks good there is no telling were it can lead.So,i find it the responsibility of everyone,as he sees the problem to make it right;I won't lie to you,I am very settled with the outcome;I am Consul,the BBC worked to perfection and the Optimates,the faction which I and Sanada have created,has never been stronger.But still if I was in the position of the temps I would be mad;I thought of it last night,that if this was happening against the Optimates,I would be still protesting.

In fact though the whole system with the factions was rotten from the beginning;It was a way of fixing elections,no matter how nicely was presented!For three weeks we would be under the dominion of the Populares,wasn't for 68powers and his brothers to give us a break of Optimate rule(and also for Maxinius Scipio,who had problems with his internet connection if I recall correctly-as if all luck was with me that day...).All the effort with the political parties was a one way road to this end,were some factions would fix by legal ways an election,in other words the BBC coalition.It was the natural evolution of politics in-game(it also happened in reality;take for example the triumvirates or the modern day coalition governments of Europe...).But the problem isn't just the Factions;The real problem is much more deep than that!

The real problem in the fact that we took the politics involved in the game deadly serious.We implemented the modern day political ethos,that is the immorality of those in power and we turned this aar to political bootcamp; I am to blame for this,maybe more that some members.
No matter what we will do with the parties,i can clearly see that it won't work;Simply because whatever restrictions we place this still is working with votes;and the vote is the decision of the caster not of the legislator.Everything we can do with laws,won't stop the former Opties voting the Opties,the Temps voting the Temps and the Populares voting the Populares.All this will continue unless we do something so radical that there will be nothing left!

So I propose this;To destroy the save and start anew;Radical,isn't it?Let us start anew and this time keep an eye to any such malpractices.Or even better,Winter,have you kept the save you gave out the first term?If yes,let us start from there exactly!The first elections were totally clean,so we won't have any trouble with the factions.Let us purge both parties and characters so that we can start again with no connection to these shameful elections.Let us even have this week off,in order to create a new constitution and therefore be guarded from such events.When we are done,let us have new elections and keep on playing.
I pledge that I will make my best to correct the error,which I took part in creating.I am therefore giving up my office if this new beginning is to start.

What say you,senators?

Why shall we do this? Because all the decisions made in game were the results of decisions that were based on the factions guidelines. We have waged war,voted for army recruitment and all the like,based in what party we are on rather than estimating the situation.That is a strong argument against all saying that the many can have better judgment from the few;Because the many as we have been presented,can be swayed easier by clever individuals.So if we can restart the aar,we can be saved from hundreds of small mistakes we made in the name of one faction and still be able to enjoy the aar.I know that i will dissatisfy many by proposing a new beginning,as Balbus,mine,Malleolus and Ancus's efforts on these weeks will be for nothing.But if you can have a solution were we can correct the mistakes of the past without having to purge the save,I will support it.

[Marie Louise von Preussen]

I disagree vehemently with what is said here. As I state, I take my own political identity ahead of my party identity; so if there are a lot of people who think more or less like me, then fine. But I do consider my ideals first and my political party at second, and I do expect most players to follow this too.

[Calvin]

If everyone took peoples credentials, then EmperorCharles would have had more offices than any of us since he is the most level headed person among us. Party politics has indeed paralysed and embittered the senate.

[Kritias]

The problem lies in the fact that there are few individuals who would vote or speak or think in their own fashion.For example,Voltaire has voted against the original version of the E&C bill while being an Optimate.That though isn't a common practice,even if it is commendable and respectable,but a rare one;Also all we,who have connected our names with the factions(myself,sanada,wode,andronicus and winter)must stand for the factions ideals instead of our own;At least that is what I was doing,I voted for what I was expected to vote as Leader of the Optimates rather my true opinion.
So I say again,were we to destroy the factions and start over from more stable beginning WITH a completed constitution to prevent all grasps of power,would you agree on joining?

ooc:Both Emperor Charles and you deserved to be Consuls,Andronicus.

[Calvin]

Yes, I feel your proposal has merit. A clean slate would probably be beneficial for all involved.

[Kritias]

I would like to say a few more words;It is essential for the good of the Republic that we keep the elections clean;We should make sure that from now on,if we start again,we vote on anybody by his influence and contribution to the Republic,not due "friendships" formed in the Senate.Purging the parties and then forming secret alliances were even more senators can have a piece of the cake,won't save the Republic. Clean elections promoted by a righteous and forethought constitution will.
In that order,I propose that we make a Senatorial Constitution asap,where all sides can contribute and that we put up a vote for every clause of the constitution,instead of voting it as a hole.
Finally,I wish to know the thoughts of all senators who read this thread so,after having a good thought,please propose some ideas to get the reform moving.

Gaius Gracchus

[Erakarhu]

What if, we started everything from the scratch? Let's start a Carthaginian Senate AAR. How does this sound?

[Kritias]

The point of the discussion is how to save the AAR,not to alter the whole idea of Sanada and Winter. In the end this is their making and they should have the last word on any change.We,the rest,just propose...

[Paul d]

What if, we started everything from the scratch? Let's start a Carthaginian Senate AAR. How does this sound?

same.

[Winter]

I rather expected quite a few disagreeing posts. Hmm.

[Winter]

No, its not. This has grown beyond us and belongs to all of you know. How we run this from now on is in all of our hands. We, sanada and I, basically act as moderators.

and no, not Carthage! Anything but Carthage!

[Kritias]

Why changing Rome?I am against this motion!Also we must decide if we want to start over with the political factions eliminated from the picture or continue as we are now... What do you think?

[Paul d]

what, so now we just have to do political alliances via pms and Xfire?

kidding, i don't object to this.


why not carthage? (asking you winter)

[Winter]

Nothing in particular, I just hate carthage. Kill My Romans will you... that sort of thing

Political alliances are fine, but when we get these massive entities that are the parties, the votes are boring, there is no intrigue, no reason not to vote with your party.

However, I don't see a system in which these parties do not inevitably form.

[Winter]

Political factions naturally evolved over the course of the game, so I fail to see how a restart would fix it.

[Kritias]

Senators,I have a proposal on how to fix this.I will post in a while,I want to write the facts in perfection first and then you will see how we can battle the corruption on the elections!

[Winter]

Why don't we start completely and utterly from scratch? Perhaps a change of scenery would be good for us. How about EB Makedonia. Or IBFD Western Roman Empire? (assuming the senate randomly regained power)? That'd be cool.

By the way never actually expected rep for this thread. Thanks for agreeing with me

[EmperorCharles]

If we do restart we could change they system a little to there was a question before about changing the voting system to public polls. i think we could use a duel system. the public polls would act as a tribune of the plebes.
both groups could propose laws making the position of tribune much more interesting.anything passed in int he tribunal would then be voted on in the senate. The reverse could also happen. laws passed in the senate would be opened up for final debate in a public poll.