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Thread: How about some libertarianism for British politics?

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  1. #1
    Kleos's Avatar Virtute et Armis
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    Default How about some libertarianism for British politics?

    With public apathy towards politics quite high (voter turnout was 71% in 1997, 59% in 2001, 61% in 2005); and little difference between the major parties who seem determined to fight for the ‘middle ground’; its time that the British political spectrum had a party that offered voters an actual choice.

    There’s ‘room’ for a libertarian footing: smaller government, lower taxation, increased individual freedom – New Labour certainly hasn’t been the champion of the above, while the Conservatives have previously pledged to match the public spending of the Labour government. A libertarian party (not necessarily a new party – I was thinking more along the lines of a possible new direction for the Conservatives) would certainly have political ground to stand on:

    • Paying the interest on the Government debt amounts to £30 Billion a year. To put this into perspective, the Government spends a similar amount on Defence (£32 billion) and Pubic Order and Safety (£33 Billion)
    • For the most recent budget year, the Government earned £553 billion through taxation, yet Labour overspent by £34 Billion, receiving criticism from both domestic organisations and the European Commission. Budget deficits have become routine for Labour Budgets since 2002.
    • Higher taxation has been blamed as the main reason for the UK becoming a worse location for business over the past years; with the UK having dropped from fourth to tenth in an international league of industrial competitiveness.
    • The most recent government budget (£587 Billion), £189 billion is going towards Social Protection or personal social services. This does not include £104 Billion that goes towards the NHS.
    • £21 Billion goes towards ‘industry, agriculture, employment and training’; in a country with little nationalised economic institutions and what should be a free market.
    • Even assuming the maintaining of the basic state pension (costs roughly £40 Billion) and the NHS (£104 Billion), there is still potential for vast reductions in the welfare state, with the above deductions still leaving roughly £ 149 Billion spent by the government on social provisions.
    • Membership of the European Union has been estimated to cost Britain £42 billion this year alone, with no tangible benefits. Free trade, (though the economic polices of the EU are not truly free trade), should not require participation in an expensive and inefficient organisation.
    Information on the budget from here.

    So what do fellow Brits think? How many would be willing to see a reduction in the Welfare State, in Cradle to Grave state care; in return for lower taxation, balanced budgets and limited government; and to what extent? Dismantle it completely; or leave the NHS and Pensions?

    How about this as a possible direction fro the Conservative Party – by only promising to limit the Inheritance Tax the Conservatives gained a lot of support. Surely increased personal freedoms, further protection for those defend their property could only be popular. It would hardly be a radical change, indeed, the risk would probably come from those denouncing the change as a return to Thatcherism; an association David Cameron probably wouldn't want. In a recent speech at the University of Westminster the question of liberty was raised, with Gordon Brown saying that "liberty is not the only value we prize and not the only priority for government". With important issues being raised about what citizenship means; with discussion on a Bill of Rights and Responsibilities and constitutional reform; and continuing discussion on the relationship of Egland and Scotland in the United Kingdom - it seems that what defines Liberty and what the governments role should be in relation to its citizens are going to be increasingly important to the electorate.
    Last edited by Kleos; October 31, 2007 at 10:22 AM.
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  2. #2

    Default Re: How about some libertarianism for British politics?

    I can't see this for the Conservatives. They consistently gain support from higher classes with things like this lowering of inheritance tax. This helps the rich the most and puts strains on other areas, i.e. the poorer sectors.

  3. #3
    LoZz's Avatar who are you?
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    Default Re: How about some libertarianism for British politics?

    yes lets apply american ideals to a country that isnt america! because thats working so well around the world right now...

    i agree the welfare state needs to get rid of the sponges and stop giving out as much as it does, but it should still be their to help those in need, same with the nhs. and government could be a little smaller but your forgetting the american federial government is small because the state governments are so large, our county councils are tiny but our overall government is large so the only way to reduce big government is to increase little government and if i am honest we are such a small country as it is it would be wasted

  4. #4

    Default Re: How about some libertarianism for British politics?

    It wouldn't sell in the UK. Britons do not want the problems associated with a neglected public sector. However, we do have a problem that young people are taxed heavily to prop up our old population, and something, not necesarilly this, will have to be done about it.

  5. #5

    Default Re: How about some libertarianism for British politics?

    no, libertarianism doesn't work, and the UK doesn't like minimal govt
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  6. #6
    Last Roman's Avatar ron :wub:in swanson
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    Default Re: How about some libertarianism for British politics?

    Quote Originally Posted by Modern Life is Rubbish View Post
    no, libertarianism doesn't work, and the UK doesn't like minimal govt
    only part true. Libertarianism can work, or rather, moderate libertarianism can work.
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  7. #7
    Tabell's Avatar Decanus
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    Default Re: How about some libertarianism for British politics?

    The welfare state should be returned to how it once was, as a safety net rather than a free ride on the backs of everyone else. The NHS for example does free cosmetic surgery and thats simply not right.
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  8. #8

    Default Re: How about some libertarianism for British politics?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tabell View Post
    The welfare state should be returned to how it once was, as a safety net rather than a free ride on the backs of everyone else. The NHS for example does free cosmetic surgery and thats simply not right.
    True - but I think free cosmetic surgury is fine for burn victims and the like.

  9. #9
    LoZz's Avatar who are you?
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    Default Re: How about some libertarianism for British politics?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tabell View Post
    The welfare state should be returned to how it once was, as a safety net rather than a free ride on the backs of everyone else. The NHS for example does free cosmetic surgery and thats simply not right.
    the cosmetic surgery is only free for those who "need it" I.E. as mr. ferrets pointed out burns victims etc.

    its not free for people who want DD brests.

  10. #10

    Default Re: How about some libertarianism for British politics?

    I wish it was.

  11. #11
    Kleos's Avatar Virtute et Armis
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    Default Re: How about some libertarianism for British politics?

    So what do you feel the Government should provides in terms of welfare?
    As I mentioned above, while still mantaining current funding of both pensions and the NHS; we still have £149 Billion spent on social provision.

    I feel nearly all other welfare provisions are unnecessary.
    Job Seekers Allowance is not necessary with the current health of the economy; there is no shortage of jobs.

    Family Allowance seems more of a token gesture; I refuse to believe that £18 a week (£12 for non-first born) makes any difference to the vast majority of those recieving it.

    Council Housing is unproductive, often leading to a welfare trap; either voluntarily or un-voluntarily. I personally think private housing works better and market forces would always provide cheap accomadation; even if it did result in US style large scale trailer parks.

    So lets say NHS and Pensions were the only welfare expenditures, ; we could, for example :

    • Balance the budget (£34 billion)
    • Scrap Excise Duties and Business rates (£63 billion; also benefits economy)
    • Scrap Council Tax and Inheritance Tax (£27 Billion; both unpopular and unfair taxes, would lessen direct taxation on the individual)




    This amounts to a reduction in government expenditure of £124 Billion; leaving a surplus for any economic / financial fluctuations and 'room to manoeuvre'; such as a "buffer" to deal with an ageing population.


    Quote Originally Posted by Shyam Popat View Post
    I can't see this for the Conservatives. They consistently gain support from higher classes with things like this lowering of inheritance tax. This helps the rich the most and puts strains on other areas, i.e. the poorer sectors.

    How does the lowering of inheritance tax help the rich the most? After all it is they who have the money and knowledge to exploit the loopholes, or failing that the financial means to comfortably deal witht he tax. Its the working classes who are faced with another left wing inspired obstacle to their own social mobility; while the middle class is persecuted for daring to want to leave their own flesh and blood a little something - even if this little something is completely tied up in property.
    Then theres the whole 'ethics' to the tax....we get taxed if we earn, taxed is we save, taxed if we spend, and taxed if we die.
    Last edited by Kleos; November 04, 2007 at 11:31 AM.
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  12. #12
    rathelios's Avatar Miles
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    Default Re: How about some libertarianism for British politics?

    Voters seem to make a presumption that cutting taxes equals cutting public services. We all want to have our cake and eat it at the same time. There does not necessarily have to be such a connection. Gordon Brown has massively hiked up the national debt in order to pour money into public services in the last decade. This money appears to have had a negligible effect. This shows that the assumption that higher spending equates to better public services is wrong. Until we, the voters, accept it's about how you spend the money not how much you spend all the political parties are going to stay sitting on this merry-go-round doling out cash to civil servants like it's candy. If you don't like it blame swing voters in marginal constituencies and single-issue pressure groups.
    Actually we won't have long to wait until the worm turns. It's about time a recession came along and took our toys and aspirations away. Then the cycle can repeat itself again and again and again.....
    Last edited by rathelios; November 04, 2007 at 12:11 PM.

  13. #13
    LoZz's Avatar who are you?
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    Default Re: How about some libertarianism for British politics?

    Quote Originally Posted by catinwasher View Post
    Voters seem to make a presumption that cutting taxes equals cutting public services. We all want to have our cake and eat it at the same time. There does not necessarily have to be such a connection. Gordon Brown has massively hiked up the national debt in order to pour money into public services in the last decade. This money appears to have had a negligible effect. This shows that the assumption that higher spending equates to better public services is wrong. Until we, the voters, accept it's about how you spend the money not how much you spend all the political parties are going to stay sitting on this merry-go-round doling out cash to civil servants like it's candy. If you don't like it blame swing voters in marginal constituencies and single-issue pressure groups.
    Actually we won't have long to wait until the worm turns. It's about time a recession came along and took our toys and aspirations away. Then the cycle can repeat itself again and again and again.....
    you say negligible effect because you have never used these public serives, or atlest not to a great deal. the country is bigger then what you see out your window and i can asure you it has made alot of difference, all those billions have not just put colour squares on the side of emergency vehicles.

    though you are still right in that its how, and not how much.


    edit: SORRY double post, my bad.

  14. #14
    LoZz's Avatar who are you?
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    Default Re: How about some libertarianism for British politics?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kleos View Post

    I feel nearly all other welfare provisions are unnecessary.
    Job Seekers Allowance is not necessary with the current health of the economy; there is no shortage of jobs.

    Family Allowance seems more of a token gesture; I refuse to believe that £18 a week (£12 for non-first born) makes any difference to the vast majority of those recieving it.

    .
    you sir have never been poor!

    though i agree we need to stop throwing money away

  15. #15
    Domesticus
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    Default Re: How about some libertarianism for British politics?

    I think social democracy needs to be re-introduced to the whole of Europe.

  16. #16
    Oldgamer's Avatar My President ...
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    Default Re: How about some libertarianism for British politics?

    Kleos, I would be more than happy to ship America's libertarians to the UK!

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