A post about military units and faction composition

[Mikel]

I won't post yet, but I'm doing some research about the current armies standing in the mod. Mainly, its aimed at depicting medieval armies with far fewer militia units, the notion that peasant anything should be completely removed since it did not exist, and that medieval armies consisted of two things: 1) Men at arms, 2) Mounted men at arms 3) Nobility, or Knights, which always fought mounted.

Spear units were generally not used in Feudal europe, I do not know about Eastern Europe and the Middle East, but I doubt it was well. This was due to the fact that in a medieval battle, handling a spear without being in formation was not practical or useful. A person with a sword and shield could out maneuver a spear and shield man quite easily. Therefore the notion of spear is not correct.

However, spears in formation were completely useful. A good example of this was found in the Rise of Switzerland as a non-neutral state in the late medieval age. then, moving forward to the very and and the Renissance, the Spanish Tercio which was a mix of these Pikes and Muskets. Therefore being completely able to repel melee attacks and having range.

Finally, I htink that the special units for factions should be removed, and replaced with faction specific units for certain factions, not all of them. While France and the HRE did have awesome Heavy Calvary, England did not. Thus, lategame England should have crappy Heavy Calvary, unable to build a better unit of this Calvary, while France and HRE could. However, England does get longbowmen, which in turn no one else has them.

Hungary, Vikings and the Moors were known to be raiders prior to the 11th century. Therefore these factions should be lightly armed.

Iberia is a mix of northern Europe and Moorish influence, but leaning more to heavy than light armor.

Another example is Byzantium, which was different from the West by having smaller, better prepared and equiped armies than larger armies with lower discipline, training, and armor. This was specifically one of the reasons why it outlasted the Western Roman Empire, who suffered great defeats at the end of its time and caused a capitulation of Empirial power over its regions and subsequently forfeiting territories to the barbarians whom they has allowed to settle in their frontiers and could keep in check.

In the end, I really do think that medieval armies were very alike one another, with specific differences sprinkled here and there, being due to regional differences and what not. This could be supplemented with an increase in the availability of mercenaries, and at the same time keeping those mercenaries within an area of recruitment so that you do not end up with frank crossbowmen in Jerusalem.

[Mythos]

This much historical inaccuracy and general ignorance that should have made the internet crash. Needless to say that you are clearly wrong about your assertions. I will leave it to others to point out why.

[Mikel]

Well, if the research and material I'm finding and planning to use say that medieval armies (post 1000 a.d., not Dark Ages armies) did not have levy militia because amateurish farmers who are suddnely given a sword cannot stand up to another guy, in a war horse that costs him around 50,000 ducats and full mail armor who trains every day with this horse and armor and weapons in war but you somehow manage to say that I'm clearly wrong then I'd suggest either stating why I'm wrong or keep your baseless commentaries and insulting implications to yourself.

I do not mind that you disagree with me as to the direction that this mod should take. Its not yours or my desicion. But I am free to post ideas on how to make it better. And one thing this mod has constantly had is an approach to realism, instead of fantasy war dogs that conquer the world in 20 turns. Units like the conquistadors, robin hood archers in green tights and the papacy's swiss guard are as much of a joke as your intent on ridiculing me with that internet crash quip, quite childish might I add.

[Jihada]

I used to refer to this site when building miniatures for the medieval period although Napoleonics is my main interest. However, I think you ll find the use of spears ,levy,peasants and light infantry/ auxiliaries quite widespread

http://www.fanaticus.org/DBA/armies/medievals.html

[Mikel]

Its always important to note that even on the website you just posted, when they refer to spears/lances they mean horse-back fighters whom are not Feudal Knights. Not foot soldiers with spears and shields.

Also, most of what is there is pre-1080; therefore supporting my earlier claim that militias were useful in the dark ages and early middle ages but by the 11th century they had mostly disappeared due to horseback being so much better. Heck, you dont need to go that far: The game, as it is right now, will be nearly impossible to beat on the use of infantry and militia alone.

[Mikel]

Is there any hope for anyone giving me a script which eliminates all peasant units and militia spearmen?

The only record I can currently find of foot soldiers forming a spear wall was in the 100 years war, and that was at the beginning with the soldiers specifically creating the saxon shield wall with spears in their hands as a defensive position. Anything else has been speculation.

Also, perhaps we can change the spearmen militia unit for pikemen militia: http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pike_(weapon)

[Mikel]

yeah...i keep looking and I cant find anything on spearmen with shields. All the spears used started as commoners in the time around the Battle of Bannockburn (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Bannockburn) and then in the late era with the Swiss making it a professional unit.

All other infantry that I'm finding, at least in Central and Western Europe did not have spears for sidearms.

[Jihada]

I m sorry but if you look at that site again you ll see it covers the periods from roman times to about 1500.
It took a lot of people and research to put it together over a fair amount of time.

Sp refers to foot spears. Various cavalry types are Kn Cv LH HH. P refers to peasant types and Bd to blades, ie swords axes halberds etc .
Pk = pikes . The rationale for the army build is explained in each accompanying text.

I can point to other sites if you want. Can you justify your claims on the lack of spear infantry with any references ?

[♔ST0MPA♔]

you could just open up exprt_descr_units and exprt_descrt_buildings and eliminate what you dont like there.

[♔ST0MPA♔]

Is there any hope for anyone giving me a script which eliminates all peasant units and militia spearmen?

do you just want this for catholic factions catholic/orthodox or all

[Mikel]

All.

And I understand that the site covers all periods, but not for all factions. And those factions that DO have a link, are mostly out of the game.

[Mikel]

Also, they seem to point out in all of their research about what I am saying as true, and only in the army compositions do they ever mention "spear men" without ever addressing what that means, or how the unit was composed, of who, and how it fought.

[♔ST0MPA♔]

ok all peasant units, all militia units, but keep levy?

[Mikel]

yep.

[Mikel]

dont know how im going to get free upkeep from now on..but I'll figure something out.

I remember my favorite mod of all time was the RTR:Roma mod, which had a system where you never had standing armies and the garrisons needed per city was 1 unit. Armies would be extremely expensive, so you only recruited an army, which took you 1 turn by the way, when you needed to fight and then you'd disband it again.

[Jihada]

Well just one example from that list is the Anglo-Norman army, no, 134.
The notes emphasise that foot spears should be used in combination with knights and also peasant light support, javelins or light bows.
Every faction in PDER has an army mentioned , mostly more than one era between 1080 -1500. Also an extensive list is given of possible enemies, often with notes on fighting them.



However, you do what you think is correct. It s your game.

[Jihada]

http://www.fanaticus.org/DBA/battles/index.html

for individual battles from Sagrajas to late middle ages

Las Grandes Batallas de la Reconquista can be downloaded as an ebook

Cavalry used as vanguard and flank with infantry ( spears,levy,peasants,light. heavy) as central support or reserve seems common.

[Legionario]

Mikel,read about the Italian urban militias of 12th and 13th century ,and you will find lotsa use of rural levies,(of course not as dumb as they are depicted in M2TW,and not armed with a fork!) also urban low class and rural militias were equipped from the city storages so they had military training (not the best of course) and apparels,though not standardisation of it.