Europe Total War : War of Corruption

[General_Vladimir]

And, equally "The Brabant" is between the Flanders and Frieseland. And at this time it was a territory of the Holy Roman Empire, and was for a long long time. How will it be incoroporated into the game? Will it also be an emerging faction?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duchy_of_Brabant

[NikeBG]

Just of major consideration, especially to you Sinople. Bulgaria didn't exist until 1185. It was part of the Byzantine Empire (Or the Eastern Roman Empire).

Indeed, that's what I was wondering too! The only possible option for Bulgaria to be playable from the start is if the mod's starting date is 1072 - the time of the rebellion of Georgi Voiteh and Konstantin Bodin, who was crowned as tsar Petar (the Third). Otherwise, I don't see any other possible options in the time-frame of 1070-1100, as it's said for this mod's start-date. Not that there weren't any other big insurrections after it (and before 1185), but none of them had a leader being crowned, giving a legitimacy of restoring the state (only a person from royal blood could be crowned and after Bodin there weren't many candidates left).

[Cimbye]

hmhm yes Vladimir I agree with you. Bulgaria sould be an emerging faction.

And about brabant... I think we have now enough emerging factions it's not really important

[Matthæus]

so Croatia is in ?
I offer my help as historian for Croatian faction.

[Cimbye]

Yes it is in but Slavonia is Hungarian region with Zagreb.
I think my frien Vladimir has already did it
Vladimir?

[Cimbye]

these pictures from school it is my historical atlas
Europe at the end of 11th century

The Kingdom of Hungary at the end of 11th century


So this is historical accurate

[General_Vladimir]

Hail all!!

About Bulgaria: Indeed NikeBG:

Quote:
Originally Posted by General_Vladimir
Just of major consideration, especially to you Sinople. Bulgaria didn't exist until 1185. It was part of the Byzantine Empire (Or the Eastern Roman Empire).

Indeed, that's what I was wondering too! The only possible option for Bulgaria to be playable from the start is if the mod's starting date is 1072 - the time of the rebellion of Georgi Voiteh and Konstantin Bodin, who was crowned as tsar Petar (the Third). Otherwise, I don't see any other possible options in the time-frame of 1070-1100, as it's said for this mod's start-date. Not that there weren't any other big insurrections after it (and before 1185), but none of them had a leader being crowned, giving a legitimacy of restoring the state (only a person from royal blood could be crowned and after Bodin there weren't many candidates left).

We will more likely then going back and starting Bulgaria if Sinople agrees on it to start as an emerging faction later in the 12th Century. That will be better because by then Bulgaria will have gained its independence. The only problem with emerging factions is that it will be harder to play it because it will be emerging at a set date. But that is for the mod map makers and coders to decide

Regarding Croatia: Matko is quite a professional historian and his insight is invaluable. Anything he says regarding the history of the Croatian region will indeed play a big part in this mod. We are historians equal, but Matko has the experience and knowledge to have that greater impact and accuracy.


At this moment regarding Croatia, its regions will be Dalmatia and Pannonian Croatia due to its subdued territory from the Hungarians in 1070-1100. Zagreb region is part of Slavonia, but the Hungarians (Madyars) captured that before the mod starts, so it would be quite innacurate to state as such from the research we have made to state that Slavonia at 1070-1100 is in the Kingdom of Croatia's hands.

But hey its still there, its got a fighting strength especially if its there at 1070. Do you agree matko regarding those historicise in this time period? The settlements are Dubrovnik for Dalmatia and for Pannonian Croatia Sisak.


In essence, Pannonian Croatia is a region of the Kingdom of Croatia then anything else. Pannonian Croatia and Dalmatia came together to found the Kingdom of Croatia, so I thought it appropriate to make it 2 of the regions that the Kingdom of Croatia would control.

[Cimbye]

So you say thet slavonia was under croatian controll in 1100?

Slavonia was already Hungarian when the mod starts that's why I showed the pictures for you from my historical atlas that we use in school this is historical authentic and made by many professional historians (not only hungarians)

Kingdom of Croatia was that I showed you

[Matthæus]

So you say thet slavonia was under croatian controll in 1100?

Slavonia was already Hungarian when the mod starts that's why I showed the pictures for you from my historical atlas that we use in school this is historical authentic and made by many professional historians (not only hungarians)

Kingdom of Croatia was that I showed you

tell me exactly what year are you talking about

[General_Vladimir]

1070 I think we agreed with the mod starting their. Sinople said it would so we're waiting for his affirmative . Slavonia was part of Croatia in 1070 as I talked to matko. He said that it was part of Croatia at that time. Here, Slavonian history from... Wikipedia

n 1027 a Hungarian Army under Stjepan Svetoslavić of the side branch of the Trpimirović dynasty took Slavonia and made it a Slavonian Banate of the Kingdom of Hungary, ruled by its own dynasty of Svetoslavić. Slavonia was reunified with Croatia in the 1070s under King Dmitar Zvonimir Svetoslavić. In 1091 it separated again and accepted the suzerainty of the Hungarian crown. 11 years later, the rest of Croatia also accepted the suzerainty of the Hungarian crown. In the 12th century there was a practice that successor of the throne first became Duke of "whole Slavonia" (like the eldest British prince is prince of Wales), and there were some power grabs since in many cases son waged war against father, trying to establish and confirm its power base.

Its hard to find any other websites that are about Slavonia that aren't in Croatian

[General_Vladimir]

Also Sinople and to everyone else the Croatian Coat-Of-Arms and the Serbian one isn't historically accurate. The chess pieces croatian one didn't come to the 1500's according to matko. He has said this one with three lion heads which came among this period and is historically accurate:

http://www.familynamesonline.com/img...lddalmatia.gif


Information regarding it:

faction symbols za hrvatsku i srbiju su krivi.

"šahovnica" - chess board - cant be proved to exist before second half of 15 century (first found on money of Nikola Iločki (Újlaki Miklós) in 1471). and after that on relief in 1491 - near Senj. W are sure that at least from 1500's it represents the whole kingdom.

before that a coat of arms of "Kingdom of Croatia and Dalmatia" - was the coat of arms that today represents Dalmatia only - 3 leopards (heraldryc leopards ) heads on blue background . Dalmatinski grb se u hrvatskoj povijesti prvi put spominje na prijelazu iz 14. u 15. stoljeće, a njegovo objavljivanje se vezuje uz ime kralja Sigismunda Luksemburškog. U početku je simbolizirao cijelu Hrvatsku, a od 1525. godine postaje grbom Dalmacije.


This coa if from reign of Sigismund of Luxemburg. But coa is older - it seems that it first appears in 14 century (but there are some indications that it is older). In earlier variants coa has red background. http://www.familynamesonline.com/img...lddalmatia.gif

And in earliest source known to me, coa looks like this: 3 heraldryc loins heads turned on side - on red background.
Kralj Sigismund Luksemburški je objavio 1406. dalmatinski grb. Do 1525. on je bio simbolom cijele Hrvatske. Oduvijek je prikazivao tri okrunjene glave (2+1), koje ponekad pokazuju crvene jezike. U početku su to bile tri na crvenom štitu srebrne lavlje glave okrenute nalijevo. Kasnije su bile zamijenjene leopardovim, okrenutim en face, a štit je postao plave boje. Pod mletačkom vlašću plava boja štita opet je bila promijenjena u crvenu.


Before that Herceg Andrija (1192. - 1211.) Arpadović (Andras II) before he became king he had a title "Croatian Herzeg" - during this period he minted his own coins. so called frizatiks. These are known as "Croatia nfrizatiks" - on them there is a half moon and the star - http://www.crotalk.com/modules/cjayc...ndex.php?id=23

Any coat of arms used before that is unknown. Theories that chessboard is frim 11 century are stories for small children.

[Cimbye]

So the mod will start in 1070 or in 1100?:hmmm:

[Matthæus]

I like your signature Cimbye

[General_Vladimir]

OK,

SO we can think of delete the Califate of Cordoue and put the Ottoman Empire instead, but for another version :original: (a 2.0 I think)


And for your historical "war", I think I'll start the mod earlier ( 1090 I think), like that the Kingdoms of Croatia will be an independant faction.

If you have any suggestion, question, or something to say, post :original:

He says 1090, but we talk also about 1070. 1070 is a good date, and I think its what most of our research goes around.

In regards again to Slavonia, it didn't become Hungarian until king Dmitar Zvonimir died, as shown in the following picture.




I will post more about Slavonia in the Historians Quarters. But at this moment in time I await Sinople to come with a concrete answer about all of these things we talked. I sent him a pm so hopefully he posts...

[General_Vladimir]

Thats our signature If anyone wants to use it Its not that flash. I'm making a bloody awesome one next it should be a bit bigger but better, probably 150 to 650.

Cheers, and enjoy

Emperor Vladimir

[sinople]

I think we should start at the best date from a historical point of view. The date where the historical problems with the faction list are the less .

For Brabant I think we should put it as a vassal (as Bohemia).
For Bulgaria, we can think of a way to be dependant of Byzantium ?

For the CoA ok



@ Matko : if you want to help you can of course , and the mod is solid because i'm finishing to integrate units and "just" the map and the croatian faction aren't made for the 1.0
The AI system will be for the 1.5 or something like that

[General_Vladimir]

Hail!!

Alas awesome

At Sinople: The Brabant will have to be a vassal under the HRE to be historically correct, not Bohemia because they didn't control it at this time:

The Landgraviate of Brabant was established as a feudal imperial fief within the duchy of Lotharingia, more specifically Lower Lotharingia after the partition of the duchy in 959. As such, it was an integral part of Middle Francia and the Holy Roman Empire. The imperial fief was assigned to count Henry III of Leuven about 1085-1086, more exactly after the death of the preceding margrave of Brabant, Count Palatine Herman II of Lotharingia.

Under HRE. So yeh it could be a vassal under the HRE.

But Bulgaria, it can be an emerging faction as well If we want it It should be good because it gets its independence in 1185, so it could be ermeging as well. But before that mate its under Byzantine control. It would be historically inaccurate to say it existed at the time of 1070.

However, the state (Bulgaria) was completely destroyed by the Byzantines led by Basil II (Basil the Bulgar-Slayer) in 1018 after their victory at Kleidion

To add upon:

The people of Bulgaria challenged Byzantine rule several times in the 11th and then again later in the early 12th century. The biggest uprising occurred under the leadership of Peter II Delyan, (proclaimed Emperor of Bulgaria in Belgrade in 1040). In the mid to late 11th century, the Normans, fresh from their recent conquests in southern Italy and Sicily, landed in the Balkans and began advancing against the Byzantine Empire. It took the Byzantines until 1185 before the Normans were driven out but until then they posed a constant threat to Byzantine Bulgaria. In 1091 another invasion came in the form of the Pechenegs. However, these too were crushed at Levounion and again in c. 1120 by the Byzantine Empire. After that, the Hungarians made an attempt to increase their influence beyond the Danube river; John Comnenus' campaigns along the Danube eventually drove back the Hungarians as well by c.1140. It would be another 45 years before Bulgaria would attain independence. Until that time, Bulgarian nobles ruled the province in the name of the Byzantine Empire until a rebellion by Ivan Asen I and Peter IV of Bulgaria led to the establishment of the Second Bulgarian Empire.

When the Second Bulgarian Empire it became one of the most important powers in Europe for quite a while after their independence in 1185.

From 1185 the Second Bulgarian Empire once again established Bulgaria as an important power in Europe for two more centuries. With its capital based in Veliko Turnovo and under the Asen dynasty, this empire fought for dominance in the region against the Byzantine Empire, the Crusader states and Hungary, reaching its zenith under Ivan Asen II (1218–1241).

[NikeBG]

It would be historically inaccurate to say it existed at the time of 1070.

And if the mod does start in 1070, the Byzantines would have a scripted rebellion just 2 years after the start, right? Would make for a pretty interesting game with them!

[General_Vladimir]

HAHAHA!!!

Indeed it would because there was a rebellion at that time Be like playing the Western Roman Empire in BI

[Cimbye]

I like your signature Cimbye

Thanks