[Decision] A New Constitution.

[Trax]

Decision

Curia decides that the Constitution of TWC must be re-written. A Council of Ten will be elected to accomplish this task.

Reason: This thread

NB!!! Support, if you think that the Curia should adopt an official stance on this issue.

Disclaimer: I'm just the messenger, please don't throw any pointy or rotten objects at my direction.

Proposer: Trax
Supporters: pannonian

[jimkatalanos]

No, I don't support this. Don't fix something that is not broken. If any problems are found in the current constitution then amend it, don't change the whole thing.

[Trax]

I dont support it either, I just want to see an overwhelming majority of citizens voting this decision down. This should silence those who want to change it.

[pannonian]

I dont support it either, I just want to see an overwhelming majority of citizens voting this decision down. This should silence those who want to change it.

Sounds like my 4 week Curia recess Bill during the last Curia-bashing bout. Support.

[Erich von Manstein]

I should point out that Hex, the Speaker and the Curator are currently working on a slimmed-down Constitution to present to the Curia for further discussion. I'm not so sure that we need a complete rewrite, rather a mass pruning of all of the ambiguous provisions that feed the Curial lawyer types. The hope is that by simplifying those provisions and making the entire Constitution easier to understand by everyone, we'll allow the citizenship to spend its time discussing methods of improving the site, not the finer details of elections and whatnot.

[Medicus]

I should point out that Hex, the Speaker and the Curator are currently working on a slimmed-down Constitution to present to the Curia for further discussion. I'm not so sure that we need a complete rewrite, rather a mass pruning of all of the ambiguous provisions that feed the Curial lawyer types. The hope is that by simplifying those provisions and making the entire Constitution easier to understand by everyone, we'll allow the citizenship to spend its time discussing methods of improving the site, not the finer details of elections and whatnot.

Then I suggest we close this thread.

All I want is for the Curia to DO something. Time to take over the internets, anyone?

[jimkatalanos]

Then I suggest we close this thread.

All I want is for the Curia to DO something. Time to take over the internets, anyone?

Threads are not closed usually in the prothalamos. They are left open even when there is no discussion.

I am curious to see what the proposed constitution will look like.:hmmm:

[Trax]

Then I suggest we close this thread.

All I want is for the Curia to DO something. Time to take over the internets, anyone?

Why close it? The fact that Hex is writing a new version of the constitution does not mean that we can't proceed with this decision. The members of Hex, the Speaker and the Curator are most welcome to run for a seat in the Council of Ten and present their new version for discussion, when they get elected.

Also as some of you may have noticed thes decision is about rewriting not replacing the Constitution - basicly the same thing the Hex is doing right now.

[Empress Meg]

Ah, well then this thread is kinda random no? In any case I'll wait and see what this revised/new/rewritten/revamped Constitution has to say.

Devoirs The Empress

[Muizer]

I should point out that Hex, the Speaker and the Curator are currently working on a slimmed-down Constitution to present to the Curia for further discussion.

What you do in your own time is not my concern, but I'd suggest that in your capacity of speaker you work with the Curia on the constitution (or not, if that's the Curia's choice) and communicate it back to HEX. After all, the speaker is the Curia's representative to HEX, not the other way around.

[Elrond]

What you do in your own time is not my concern, but I'd suggest that in your capacity of speaker you work with the Curia on the constitution (or not, if that's the Curia's choice) and communicate it back to HEX. After all, the speaker is the Curia's representative to HEX, not the other way around.

I personally think that the fact that a new constitution is being written in private speaks volumes about the current state of the curia.

A hex written constitution has the advantage that it will automatically be approved by Hex and it will in all likely hood be more practical and better than a curia written one.

The curia seems to be keen on gaining new powers when its largely incapable of using the ones it has. A good example is moderator elections - the ratification system works fine and the curator election debacle were I ended up in power after 2 votes, 2 vetos and 12 days after the election was due to end shows that curial elections are not exactly the best way to chose officials. A similar situation in moderator elections would have serous consequences for the site.

In another thread the CdeC was heavily attacked despite the fact that it makes good decisons and works well on a day to day basis - it would be better to give more power to the CdeC than to the curia as the curia has proved to be far less effective than the CdeC.

[jimkatalanos]

I personally think that the fact that a new constitution is being written in private speaks volumes about the current state of the curia.

A hex written constitution has the advantage that it will automatically be approved by Hex and it will in all likely hood be more practical and better than a curia written one.

The curia seems to be keen on gaining new powers when its largely incapable of using the ones it has. A good example is moderator elections - the ratification system works fine and the curator election debacle were I ended up in power after 2 votes, 2 vetos and 12 days after the election was due to end shows that curial elections are not exactly the best way to chose officials. A similar situation in moderator elections would have serous consequences for the site.

In another thread the CdeC was heavily attacked despite the fact that it makes good decisons and works well on a day to day basis - it would be better to give more power to the CdeC than to the curia as the curia has proved to be far less effective than the CdeC.

So the curia can not be trusted, mr. curator?

[Elrond]

So the curia can not be trusted, mr. curator?

On issues like the constitution? No it cant.

Even if everyone goes into writing a new constitution with the best of intentions it will in all likelihood be hijacked by curial lawyer types and will the whole thing we end up as a mess.

People seem to mistake what the curia can be and what it is - the first is a good representative body to advise Hex and the latter is a total mess.

[Erich von Manstein]

What you do in your own time is not my concern, but I'd suggest that in your capacity of speaker you work with the Curia on the constitution (or not, if that's the Curia's choice) and communicate it back to HEX. After all, the speaker is the Curia's representative to HEX, not the other way around.

Efficiency is the key word here, Muizer. It is far easier for a handful of individuals working towards the same end to produce a draft then it is for several dozen individuals with different intentions to do so. This is even demonstrated in Trax's proposal of a 10-person council; the disadvantage there being that first the proposal must be voted on, then elections must be held, then the council must work on and vote on a draft. I'd much prefer to remove all but the last step; the chances of success are infinitely higher.

Besides, the Curia will still have ample opportunity to make any desired changes. During the production of a first draft, however, I have found that a few heads is much better than a few dozen. This isn't any different from drafting a research paper: a small number of people work on the first draft, whereas a dozen or more (peers) contribute to the final draft.

Any idea when the new constitution will be ready? so that the curia can vote it.

Hopefully by the end of the week. I have the rough draft of a 50-page research paper due on Wednesday, plus at least one or two nights of Halloween festivities; a few other members of Hex have mentioned various time constraints this week as well.

any idea whether this draft will be voted on as an amendment, or simply imposed?

Most likely an amendment, as this is a reduction rather than a rewrite and, as such, is essentially one far-reaching amendment. Don't quote me on that, however.

[Muizer]

Efficiency is the key word here, Muizer. It is far easier for a handful of individuals working towards the same end to produce a draft then it is for several dozen individuals with different intentions to do so.

And the handful of individuals you chose (without so far telling the Curia) happen to be the HEX members? And what, if I may ask, makes them qualified for this task?

[Erich von Manstein]

And the handful of individuals you chose (without so far telling the Curia) happen to be the HEX members? And what, if I may ask, makes them qualified for this task?

Oh, I don't know...maybe the fact that they happen to keep this site running on a daily basis? Or the fact that they show more dedication to this site in a week than most members of the Curia demonstrate in a year?

See, Muizer, your attitude exemplifies everything that is wrong with the current Constitution and, by extension, the Curia. This entire thought process that change may only be proposed (let alone initiated!) following a 3-day discussion, a 7-day vote, a 14-day election (counting the sign-up period), followed by yet another discussion (we're looking at a minimum of four weeks right there, although in reality it'd be more than a month). It's this bureaucratic, by-the-book, red tape obsession that is causing many of the Curia's older and well-respected members to resign their citizenships in droves.

I'm proposing to remove this stagnate mindset that allows the Curial lawyer types to thrive, bogging down any chance of change for the better as they go. One doesn't eliminate the bureaucrats by appointing more bureaucrats to do the task.

You shouldn't appear surprised by my doing so, either. I ran and was elected overwhelmingly on a platform of simplifying the Constitution and making the Curia a more enjoyable place for everyone, not slavishly reporting the Curial desires of every individual citizen to Hex.

[Professor420]

That's right, Hex has never made a mistake when drafting a Constitution...

[Elrond]

That's right, Hex has never made a mistake when drafting a Constitution...

I don't doubt that Hex will make mistakes when drafting the new constitution but I believe they will make far less than the curia will.

[the Black Prince]

bearing in mind of course that the current constitution was largely drafted by the Council, and 100% approved by the Council before it came into force....

[Lusted]

Be interesting to see the Councils slimmed down Constitution, the current one definitely needs to be made simpler, have the superfluous stuff removed, and made easier to read.