Question:

**Mikel** · October 22, 2007, 11:21 PM

How does the whole making a province a city or a castle go into place? Because Barcelona is a castle and Valencia is a city..so..um..:hmmm: just curious..because if anything, most provinces should be cities and very few as castles..since we're only making provinces for cities/castles of importance. So I just felt like asking, not nagging, btw.

**VirusITA** · October 23, 2007, 01:56 AM

Originally Posted by Mikel

How does the whole making a province a city or a castle go into place? Because Barcelona is a castle and Valencia is a city..so..um..:hmmm: just curious..because if anything, most provinces should be cities and very few as castles..since we're only making provinces for cities/castles of importance. So I just felt like asking, not nagging, btw.

I know you're spanish, so if you could make a small list with changes about spanish cities/castles (if thier position is correct, how big they were, ...) because you probably know spanish history better than me/socal_infidel/gigantus/C.A.

Ps: plz give a look to my BigMap version too and write here!

**Socal_infidel** · October 23, 2007, 09:55 AM

Originally Posted by Mikel

How does the whole making a province a city or a castle go into place? Because Barcelona is a castle and Valencia is a city..so..um..:hmmm: just curious..because if anything, most provinces should be cities and very few as castles..since we're only making provinces for cities/castles of importance. So I just felt like asking, not nagging, btw.

Well, basically I've tried to research as much as possible when it comes to the city/castle distinction. But to be perfectly honest, because of the way PDER recruitment system is set-up, I've tried to give every Western faction at least one castle.

In case you don't know, in PDER only castles have access to the Feudal Estate line of buildings that allow access to recruitment of Knights and their Retainers (i.e. Armoured Sergeants, Mounted Sergeants, etc.). So if a faction wants to rely primarily on these expensive but high-quality units it will have to designate some lands as Feudal Estates.

Cheers!

**Mikel** · October 23, 2007, 12:56 PM

Yah, I know..I just noticed yesterday...my first campaign was with Sicily and then with Papal States but something about the Pope makes me not want to play them.

Either ways, I started a Spanish campaign yesterday and noticed that Barcelona was a castle and Valencia wasn't, which I am not saying that they couldn't be but merely that its usually the other way around and that there is not a single castle or big stone in the entire Barcelona area...heh.

If you guys want, I could start doing a research all over the Iberia/Nova Hispania/French/British Isles to see where the castles actually were and make the rest cities..for realism's sake. =)

I'd offer help in other areas, I just don't have the skills.

**Socal_infidel** · October 23, 2007, 01:14 PM

Originally Posted by Mikel

Yah, I know..I just noticed yesterday...my first campaign was with Sicily and then with Papal States but something about the Pope makes me not want to play them.

Either ways, I started a Spanish campaign yesterday and noticed that Barcelona was a castle and Valencia wasn't, which I am not saying that they couldn't be but merely that its usually the other way around and that there is not a single castle or big stone in the entire Barcelona area...heh.

If you guys want, I could start doing a research all over the Iberia/Nova Hispania/French/British Isles to see where the castles actually were and make the rest cities..for realism's sake. =)

I'd offer help in other areas, I just don't have the skills.

That'd be great. Just be sure to keep in mind that every faction should have at least one starting castle (or one within easy reach!).

Cheers!

**Mikel** · October 23, 2007, 01:19 PM

Then, for castle and realism's sake, make Aragon start in the Saragossa region, and not Barcelona, or even with Barcelona.

That's just for starters. I'll start tonight with the Iberian peninsula.

**Jihada** · October 23, 2007, 04:37 PM

I looked on the site Castillos de Espana and there are various castles dating from the 11th cen or before.At least 3 in the Barcelona area.
Castillo de Sant Marcal ( Cerdonyola) ..parece que se inicia en el ano 1111...una massiva fortificaccion en los alrededores de Barcelona.
Castillo de Gelida (945)
Castillo de Burriac (siglo XI )

Quite an extensive site with notes and photos of castles in all Spanish provinces.

I just saw this site is on Wikipedia in English, Castles in Spain

**♔ST0MPA♔** · October 23, 2007, 11:39 PM

Is it possible yet to add the castles from Kingdoms onto the campaign map, then direct the graphics to use the cas files from kingdoms onto the battle map, surely this would solve that problem.

**Mikel** · October 24, 2007, 02:09 AM

Castles in Barcelona? Really? IN the city? I was there last Febuary, didn't see one.

I was throughout the entire city, including the gothic part of the city which dates back to the medieval ages and I didn't see any fortifications anywhere. I bet there are more castles in San Juan, Puerto Rico than there are today in Barcelona, Spain..

**VirusITA** · October 24, 2007, 02:54 AM

Originally Posted by Mikel

Castles in Barcelona? Really? IN the city? I was there last Febuary, didn't see one.

No caste at all in Barça

I went there 2 years ago... What about making Palma de Mallorca a castle? :hmmm:Or something in Navarra? :hmmm::hmmm:

**Mikel** · October 24, 2007, 04:44 AM

Found a good website with this stuff for Spain: http://www.castillosnet.org/index.shtml

Its in spanish, sorry.

Anyways, there are three castles in the Barcelona area. Cardels, San Marcial & La Roca. Actually, there are castles in every single province of this place. That could be attributed to the period from 711-1492 of constant warfare and conquest of the Peninsula, and then add another 1492-1714 where Spain was one of the main political powers in Europe and the world...That would be, approx. 1003 years of constant warfare. So, yeah, that would produce a lot of castles. Ok, I'm rambling.

What I'm suggesting is that we only create provinces in which the main city was known to be a castle, a castle. I.E. Toledo would be a castle because there is a castle built into the city.

Barcelona would be a city because there is not a castle in the city, but castles in the surrounding area.

Zaragoza does have a castle built into itself, that could be a castle province for Aragon (actually, their castle province).

Pamplona does not have a castle, anywhere. That's a city. The castle sin the Kingdom of Navarra were all at their borders (theres a lot of tower type castles..not your run of the mill disney castles) or in the basque land.

Cordoba doens't have a castle, per se. A small castle..not a castle really. Like a fortified governor's house.

Granada is ridiculously all castle.

Murcia, as a province, has a castle. I dont know if it has much else. Small castle for game? Probably.

Salamanca has a castle, and a walled portion of the city. So, castle for them.

Valencia has a castle overlooking everything, so casle province for them.

That's all of Spain..now for Portugal..I dont know, Im tired and I dont read portuguese..also I did google earth Portugal and I couldnt find anythign of note. All there is in southern portugal, to this day, are a few 20,000some peopulation towns all around the coast and nothing else. ANYTHING. So, maybe thatsouth-western-most province in iberia should be a village type thing? with like...natives? heh

**VirusITA** · October 24, 2007, 05:03 AM

Originally Posted by Mikel

Its in spanish, sorry.

No problem at all

Anyway, i'll add Salamanca soon.. Probably Murcia could be still a small city. And what about Oviedo and Palma? Both cities?

Keep on searching!

Muchas gracias!

**Jihada** · October 24, 2007, 10:35 AM

If you ve been to Barcelona I don t know how you missed Montjuich castle which overlooks the old port.

**VirusITA** · October 24, 2007, 11:00 AM

Originally Posted by Jihada

If you ve been to Barcelona I don t know how you missed Montjuich castle which overlooks the old port.

Was it a castle?

I loved Barça and Montjuic too, i think it was just a small fort for defending the city and not that the city was a castle (like Granada, for example).. Italy is full of these kind of forts and i suppose Spain too

Sorry for my english,

i guess you understand

**Mikel** · October 24, 2007, 11:19 AM

Yeah, its a small castle. I'm only referring to Castle type cities like Granada and Toledo as would-be castles.

Oviedo has another series of small forts and towers.

Palma, however, has fortresses. I've been to Majorca and I didn't see any castles there but it was a small town and mainly a type of getaway place for tourists and rich people from Madrid. So I dont think it was a big urban hub. So...castle!

**Jihada** · October 24, 2007, 11:25 AM

Montjuich is stiill a castle today occupied by the Spanish army still, my grandad was a defender there in the Spanish Civil war, Int. Brigades.
I see the capitals of these provinces as not just the individual city/castle but representing, at this map scale, the impotance of the province as either a military or economic region. The more settled regions as cities and the more unstable regions as castles.
I can see every place in Spain should be a castle by this reasoning though...permanent warfare there from 8th century onwards to the end of the reconquista and civil wars. Jaen province has the most castles in europe per square mile.

**Mikel** · October 24, 2007, 11:30 AM

As far as Montjuich, its in spanish again but oh well:
Municipio: Barcelona.
Acceso: Libre.
Horario: Lunes cerrado.
De 9:30 horas a 14:00 horas y de 15:30 horas a 20:00 horas.
Entrada: .
Contacto: .
Propiedad: Ayuntamiento de Barcelona.
Destino: Museo del Ejército y parque municipal.
Ubicación: En la población.
Cronología: Siglo XVII (1640), sobre la llamada torre del Farell, reformado poco después (1649), destruido en el siglo XVIII (1706), reconstruido y agrandado ese mismo siglo (1751).
Estado: Buen estado.
Tipo: Fuerte abaluartado.
Protección Legal: Declaración genérica del Decreto de 22 de abril de 1949. Ley 16/1985 sobre el Patrimonio Histórico Español.