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Thread: Scandza: Total War

  1. #81
    swabian's Avatar igni ferroque
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    Default Re: Scandinavia in the migration period.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dansk viking View Post
    I experimented a bit with the Proto-Norse/Germanic names

    This is how I see it now:

    Attachment 7638

    I would appreciate some help from a Norwegian, a Slav, a Finn, a Balt and maybe an Estonian

    The Headhobards position is very doubtful, and I think that the Lombards and the Gepids had moved further south, but I put them there in lack of others. (and as I thought that there must have been some left). This is also the case of the nortern Jutlandic tribes, the Wendlaz (Vandals) from Vendsyssel, the Teotoniz (Teotons) from Thy and the Cimbriz (Cimbri) from Himmerland.
    Hi folks!

    This is an awsome project you're persuing here! I'm back at modding now after a longer absence (btw: @all sorry for that, but i hardly had a choice) and maybe i can support you a bit here.

    The first thing coming to my mind is that the Heaðobards are as good as identified as remainging Langobards who are about to get assimilated into the Saxon society as an ethnical minority.

    The actual Langobards by this time have allready arrived in Pannonia where they subjugated the Gepids and defeated the Heruls, causing their exodus to Scandinavia.

    Those name crations of yours, DV, are some nice ideas, but i think this can be researched more properly. The protogermanic "iz" and "az" endings allready changed into the Proto-Old-Norse "ir" and "ar" which was taking place within the scope of the upcoming Vendel-Culture and probably casued by the arrival of the Heruls (much rather "Erilar" btw! ) on Skandza.

    I have relevant material about this, if you will, but alas, it's in German. Will see if i ca translate parts of it.

    cheers!
    Last edited by swabian; March 06, 2008 at 12:15 PM.

  2. #82

    Default Re: Scandinavia in the migration period.

    Very nice!

    I always welcome people with such great knowledge!

    You seem very convinced that the Heaðobards were remnants of the Longobards, it seems sensible, as my solution was just a guess. Where would you place them on the map?

    I would also like to hear you opinion on the Heruls; their impact, where they arrived, and how to include them in the mod. I'm also interested in knowing a bit more about the Gepids; should they be included or did they move south earlier? (I think they moved earlier, but I don't know which tribes lived on the baltic coast other than some scattered balts and finno-ugric people)

    What do you think about the campaign map; do you think it's covering the right area?

    We have to conclude something on the language; should we use Proto-Germanic or Proto/Old-Norse?
    Last edited by Dansk viking; March 06, 2008 at 01:35 PM.
    Gesaga him éac wordum, þæt híe sint wilcuman Deniga léodum

  3. #83
    swabian's Avatar igni ferroque
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    Default Re: Scandinavia in the migration period.

    Hail and praise to ye Dansk Viking!

    You seem very convinced that the Heaðobards were remnants of the Longobards, it seems sensible, as my solution was just a guess. Where would you place them on the map?
    This is strongly dependant on the starting date. However around 490 AD the Langobards allready reached Pannonia, but until then they seem to be absent from history, i.e. they probably messed around somwehere in deep Germania, without contact to the Roman world. Whether or not you regard them as former Langobards, they most likely dwelled next to the 'Danes' in Beowulf, i.e. the Jutes, in the northern Elbe region (on the right side) where the Langobards settled over after Tiberius' campaign towards the Elbe in 5 AD.

    I would also like to hear you opinion on the Heruls; their impact, where they arrived, and how to include them in the mod. I'm also interested in knowing a bit more about the Gepids; should they be included or did they move south earlier? (I think they moved earlier, but I don't know which tribes lived on the baltic coast other than some scattered balts and finno-ugric people)
    i have made a list of events concerning the Heruls and Gepids around that time:

    I start with the battle of Nedao in 454, during which the Huns suffered their devastating defeat against the coalition of mostly Gepids, Suebi, Sciri, Rugi, Sarmatians, probably also some Ostrogoths and l.b.n.l. the Heruls.
    After that battle, the Gepids and some of their allies at the Danube settled in the Area of modernday Transylvania.

    After this battle, the pressure on the Ostrogoths, due to the growing numbers Gepids, resulted again in war in 467 which apparently ended with the crushing victory of the Goths over the Sciri.

    Therafter, another alliance under the Suebian King Hunimund again waged war against the Ostrogoths, which resulted again in defeat of the said alliance + Hunimund buggering off to the Alamanni where he probably was again causing trouble... blabla. At Hunimunds side, Prokop ( i think) mentioned a guy named Alarich, who apparently was not only a Suebian, but also the leader of a bunch of Heruls, who fled to the consolidating Herulian realm in Pannonia after the defeat.

    Next comes the battle at the river "Bolia" (location unkown) which was quite similar to the battle before, resulting again in the defeat of largely the same coalition against the Goths (except Heruls), but this time, the victorius Goths began to leave Pannonia, travelling into the roman provinces of the Balkans, screened by the Herulian realm (which was later defeated by the Langobards) who apparantly was allied to the Ostrogoths for some time, but this realm has to be distinguished from a lot of other groups of Germanic micro-tribes who were called 'Heruli'. Besides, this realm was the only place where an actual Herulian ethnogenesis could have taken place and was about to take place, until the Langobards finished them off.

    However, due to the disappearing Goths, the Geipids again began to establish themselves in Pannonia, which resulted again in battle against the Ostrogoths in the year 504, which was supported by the eastern empire. The Goths, having killed the Roman soldiers as well, were victorious again and Constantinople was grossly offended, thus changed her foreign policy and made the Franks their new allies. By this time, the Langobards have allready settled in the western neighbourship to the Heruls, the dominance of which they wisely accepted. The while, the Franks defeated the Alamanni in 506 and the Visigoths in 507 and became the new superpower next to Theoderichs realm, which weakened the position of the Heruls under ther king Rudolf. Rudolf then attacked the Langobards whose rising numbers he began to regard as a threat and 508 the Herulian realm was totally destroyed, Rudolf dead and any help by Theoderich ultimately delayed and useless.

    Then the most parts of the Heruls fled to the Gepids, where they were treated very bad, others were helped to reach Italy and another large part then lived as Constantinoples' foederati. The Herulian identity among the Gepids survived only for some time, but those living near the roman border could probably outlast the turn of the century. Some of them and probably also from those in Pannonia traveled northwards, at last according to Prokop, but this is not directly backed by archaeology. But, dated around 500, a change in the type of row-groves of the Gepids can be observed, which strongly reminds of the scandinavian type of graves. This can also be observed in western baltic graves and at about the same time the sösdala-style (sweden) and nydam-style (Denmark), which are scandinavian styles of helmet design, are promptly beginning to show Eastern-Germanic influences from the Danube area, according to Heiko Steuer, who is a specialist in this matter. Here is an interesting read from him about Germanic insignia and ring-swords, but in German

    http://www.freidok.uni-freiburg.de/v...ingschwert.pdf

    and here something in english which is also refering to ring-swords

    http://www.freidok.uni-freiburg.de/v...nd_history.pdf

    What do you think about the campaign map; do you think it's covering the right area?
    yes, but i'd also like to see it reaching further southward containing Pommerania, the Saxon territory and parts of the Thuringian and Frankish (Merovingian) territory. The bottom left corner could be in Northern Belgium (salian Franks, we have Franks for ATW on our disposal), approx. 70-100 km south of Brussels and the bottom right corner somewhere near Warsaw?

    We have to conclude something on the language; should we use Proto-Germanic or Proto/Old-Norse?
    CLEARLY Proto-Norse! But that's very difficult. I'll write extra stuff on this.

    BTW: In order to be sure to be in the actual Vendel-Period, i'd suggest 520-550 as the starting date.
    Last edited by swabian; March 06, 2008 at 07:24 PM.

  4. #84

    Default Re: Scandinavia in the migration period.

    Thanks for the information Swabian, it's nice with some background knowledge.

    Okay, so I've updated some things:

    Ive decided to use Old Norse for the North Germanic factions and settlements,
    Old English for West Germanic factions and settlements and Old Frisian for Frisian settlements.

    I've extended the map:


    Right now I'm working on the settlements, I've finnished the Danish and are moving on to sweden
    For screenshots, take a look in the first post!

    I've also been looking into some of the factions:

    1) I've changed the names of the factions according to the above mentioned languages.

    2) The Jutish faction, The Aescingas are the faction of Hengest's son Aesc. As Hengest was a Jute
    they should have one settlement in Jutland, and then i've decided to delete the Frisian faction, as I figured,
    that the Jutes had conquered them (Hengest). There are even some theories,
    that the Jutes migrated to Frisia before moving (together with the Frisians) on to Britain.

    DANSK VIKING
    Last edited by Dansk viking; March 29, 2008 at 11:23 AM. Reason: added screenshots of map.
    Gesaga him éac wordum, þæt híe sint wilcuman Deniga léodum

  5. #85
    swabian's Avatar igni ferroque
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    Default Re: Scandinavia in the migration period.

    Aye. This language setting is a very practical solution, good idea imo. Playing around with Proto-Norse is too speculative and too difficult.

    There are even some theories,
    that the Jutes migrated to Frisia before moving (together with the Frisians) on to Britain.
    Jupp. Isn't that official? Its actually the standard theory, to my knowledge, that they didnt directly invade Britain. They also came into contact with the Franks during this process.

  6. #86

    Default Re: Scandinavia in the migration period.

    Good

    What do you think about the new map?
    Gesaga him éac wordum, þæt híe sint wilcuman Deniga léodum

  7. #87
    swabian's Avatar igni ferroque
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    Default Re: Scandinavia in the migration period.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dansk viking View Post
    What do you think about the new map?


    its perfect!

    the only thing i could about would be that it could reach slightly more eastward, but this would, i'm certain, cause other problmes, so it's probably optimal as far as i can tell
    Last edited by swabian; April 16, 2008 at 03:19 PM.

  8. #88

    Default Re: Scandinavia in the migration period.

    What cultures of importance is situated further east? You want to be able to conquer bits of Russia as the Skilfingar?
    Gesaga him éac wordum, þæt híe sint wilcuman Deniga léodum

  9. #89
    swabian's Avatar igni ferroque
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    Default Re: Scandinavia in the migration period.

    yes :p

    well during that time there were Slavs and Balts migrating pacefully into the territories left by the Germans, They were very poor by that time, so not much to raid :p

  10. #90

    Default Re: Scandinavia in the migration period.

    I'll just keep the map for now, but I can always change my mind
    Gesaga him éac wordum, þæt híe sint wilcuman Deniga léodum

  11. #91
    swabian's Avatar igni ferroque
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    Default Re: Scandinavia in the migration period.

    erm the Jutes didnt conquer the Frisians entirely btw, probably not even by larger parts. Most of'em probably followed the Saxons and Jutes freewillingly. I dont think deleting them would make much sense, but i reckon you wanna save the Aedhelingas for some fancy Geat, eh?

    God mid Geatum Grendeles daedda! =D

  12. #92

    Default Re: Scandinavia in the migration period.

    Very cool map Dansk viking!
    I like it more than the fjords I made in VTW.
    How big is it (pixel size)?

  13. #93

    Default Re: Scandinavia in the migration period.

    Quote Originally Posted by swabian View Post
    erm the Jutes didnt conquer the Frisians entirely btw, probably not even by larger parts. Most of'em probably followed the Saxons and Jutes freewillingly. I dont think deleting them would make much sense, but i reckon you wanna save the Aedhelingas for some fancy Geat, eh?

    God mid Geatum Grendeles daedda! =D
    I didn't say that I would delete the frisians, but I wont include a frisian faction unless I find one that fits, but the Folcwaldings were killed by Hengest, and they're the last frisian clan that I know of.

    The Frisian Aedhelingas is a bit to scandinavian IMO, but I'm not the expert in that area... Aren't they a bit to scandinavian?

    Quote Originally Posted by max_minimod
    Very cool map Dansk viking!
    I like it more than the fjords I made in VTW.
    How big is it (pixel size)?
    Thank you
    The map_heights is 581 x 511.
    Gesaga him éac wordum, þæt híe sint wilcuman Deniga léodum

  14. #94
    swabian's Avatar igni ferroque
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    Default Re: Scandinavia in the migration period.

    yes, our Anglo-Saxon nobles have way too much vendel-appearance, but dont tell anyone. Reworks are planned since long...

  15. #95

    Default Re: Scandinavia in the migration period.

    I've edited the factions a bit, and started adding the faction families. (First post)

    I've decided to use Aelle as the Saxon faction leader, he might not be the most historical correct one, but he's the best candidate for now.

    I've also decided to use the Merovingians for the Frankish faction.
    Gesaga him éac wordum, þæt híe sint wilcuman Deniga léodum

  16. #96
    swabian's Avatar igni ferroque
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    Default Re: Beowulf: Total War

    thread stickied

  17. #97

    Default Re: Beowulf: Total War

    you are welcome to use these, just thank the mtw team if you do.

    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=157723

    the images arent great, but if you see the units in action, they are very high quality.

    there are a couple of viking units in there too i think.

    good luck... oh and let me know if you manage to do a grendel!
    Formerly quetzalcoatl. Proud leader of STW3 and member of the RTR, FATW and QNS teams.

  18. #98

    Default Re: Beowulf: Total War

    Thanks mate, nice work! They might prove very useful

    Oh, and on the Grendel thing, I'm sorry to dissapoint you, I haven't realy thought of including him
    Gesaga him éac wordum, þæt híe sint wilcuman Deniga léodum

  19. #99

    Default Re: Beowulf: Total War

    ha, it is possible to do giants, but they look odd if they are more than 3 times the size of normal units.
    Formerly quetzalcoatl. Proud leader of STW3 and member of the RTR, FATW and QNS teams.

  20. #100

    Default Re: Beowulf: Total War

    I can imagine
    Gesaga him éac wordum, þæt híe sint wilcuman Deniga léodum

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