Regnum Hungariæ

[SicilianVespers]

Use this thread to discuss, and post your contribution regarding the Hungarian faction.

[Daray]

Hello!

Thank you Sicilian Vespers for this thread!

I will post here some suggestions about Hungary. I think I will speak about all of the things what are in the game. First I will speak about what is seen right at the beginning whne you start a campaign. The map of Hungary.

The map:
In this mod, the Hungarian kingdom consists of 6 provinces (only if we count Dalmatia as a Hungarian province, because historically it sometimes belonged to Hungary sometimes to Venice). These have the names Pannonia, Transylvania, Transdanubia, Banat and Hrvatska. At the beginning of the Early era Pannonia, Transylvania, Transdanubia, and Banat were parts of Hungary. At the beginning of the other eras, these and Hrvatska, and sometimes Dalmatia (I will look it up exactly, in which date to match the beginning date of the eras)

Pannonia: This territory in the game is not Pannonia. Pannonia is only the territory west to the Danube. So it would be good to rename this province. It is hard to give a name to it because it contains many different parts of the historical Hungary. So there is no good name for it, but the name Magyarország would be the best (not totaly correct, but there is no better name for this province). The capital is Székesfehérvár, that’s right. And of course it is also the capital of the whole Hungarian kingdom. But it is placed uncorrectly. It should be here:
(Ohh! Sorry. I don't know how to insert a jpg file from my computer. Any help?)

Transylvania: It is placed correctly. You can keep it’s English name if you want, but I would advise the Hungarian one Erdély. The capital of Gyulafehérvár is right and it is also placed correctly.

Transdanubia: Also an uncorrect name. Let us call it Délvidék. The capital of Szigetvár is not correct. The town Szigetvár is far to the north from there in the province you named Pannonia (hopefully you rename itt o Magyarország). If you don’t want to find another place for another capital, just rename it to Valkóvár. It is actually there, and it was not a small town.

Banat: That’s right, but put the stress’ also on it so call it Bánát. The capital of Temesvár is good, and also placed correctly.

Hrvatska: It is correct. It is true that at this time the name Croatia was used for another territory (a bit souther from this) and this territory was called officaly Szlavónia, but I think it would be good to keep the name Hrvatska. And the capital is also correct.

Dalmatia: It is correct. And the capital also (if I remember it correctly).

If I forgot something important than please ask.
Of course I will continue next time with something other (names, traits, units, banners etc. I don’t know now what will I write next.)

And I have a question: Should I make suggestions for all of the eras? Just because Dark age era is rather different from the others, and needs an own post. Also in connention of the map.

[SicilianVespers]

The Hungarian province is really too big, and should be split between Transdanubia and Alföld, but in the meantime what do you think about renaming "Pannonia" to Nagyalföld (the Great Plain?).

I think Szigetvar should probably be renamed to either Sirmium or Syrmia, unless you can think of another Banate in current province?

If you can get proper governor titles, that would also be great, and all eras would also be helpful.


[EDIT]

I am thinking we really need to split the current Pannonia.

[Daray]

Hello!

Yes it is a good idea to split this province. Do you want to split it horizontally or veticaly?
Nagyalföld is not good. This name does not exists. I rather advise Alföld, because it realy exists.

The problem with Szigetvár is that it is not there. But there are other towns there which could be used.
Sirmium is a Latin name, and Syrmia is... I don't know but not Hungarian. I think if you call the other towns Hungarian, than also call this Hungarian.

For govenor titles: the banates are not correct. Banates (or in Hungarian "bánság") were only in Croatia, and in the vassal states at the Balkans. In Hungary there were "vármegye"s. The leader of a "vármegye" was called an "ispán". So I think that the govenor titles would be these. But in Transylvania the govenor was called "vajda". And in Croatia it was "bán".

For other titles which are not connected with regions it would also be good to make a "nádor" and a "lófő". The "nádor" was a very big lord. Only the king was above him. The "lófő" was the leader of the székelys. He had some kind of autonomy. But of course in the mod they are not essential, only "would be good" things.

What are the exact starting dates of the eras?

[SicilianVespers]

Look at this map:




I was thinking to make Transdanubia one province, and the rest Alföld. We may need to include Central Hungary in Transdanubia, so Buda can stay in this province for later eras.

Campaign Start dates:

Darkage: ca 888 - 952 (Start date hasn't been set yet)
Early: 1080
High: ca 1185 - 1208 (Start date hasn't been set yet)
Late: 1311
Renaissance: 1395

I believe Szerèm is the Humgarian name for Sirmium.

[Daray]

Hello!

Don't use this map. This is about todays Hungary, with the regional system what is in use only for a few years. In the middle ages Hungary was quite different.
Use this map:
Attachment 5962
In case I can make siggestions how to split the province. (otherwise Transdanubia and Pannonia is the same)

Yes Szerém is good.

[DaVinci]

Good to have you also here ( in principle it was all said already while the dev of chivalry ... not?)

If you have interest to become a beta testing member, then pm Lorre, you are highly invited, to test the internal betas and being the Hungary consultant.

[Daray]

Hello!

Thanks DaVinci. I’m happy to help you .

Thanks for the offering of the beta test. The only problem is that I’m very busy nowdays. But maybe I can take part of it. But in this case I can’t assure you, that I will be very active.

The map again:
So you want to split the province Pannonia into two. I have a suggestion: Do it horizontally, like this:
Attachment 6000

The upper one could be called Felvidék, and the lower Alföld. The cross indicates the place of Székesfehérvár. For the Felvidék I don’t know, to which territory do you want a capital, because there were important towns in both part o fit. I’ve found three which could fit as a capital: Nyitra (west), Zólyom (middle), and Kassa (east). So you can choose it. (but only if you think that it is right of course).

For the dark age the hungarian territories must be different, buti t depents ont he starting date. The Hungarian landtaking was in 895-900. So the territories depends on when will the dark age exactly start.

Units:
I made a look at the unit sin the mod. Let’s talk about the now existing units:

High noble knights: They are good. Both.

Chivalric knights: Also good. Both mounted and dismounted.

Knights hospitaller: They were not common is Hungary. But the Teutonic knights had a camp in Transylvania. But they only lived there between 1211-1225. It is not a long time, but you can include them if you think.

Royal banderium: Good.

Feudal knights: Good of course. Both mounted and dismounted.

Merchant cavalary: Good.

Hussars: Delete them. They are not historical. There were soldiers in Hungary called hussars, buti t was the XIX. century. And also their appereance is unhistorical.

Pavise crossbowman: Good.

Arquebusiers: Good.

Crossbowmen: Good.

Clipeati: Good.

Halberdiers: Not good. Halberd was not a common weapon in Hungary.

Armati: Good.

Spear militia, town militia, peasant: They are good. There is also one problem. Make them brown haired. Blondness is very rare among Hungarians. Adn remove those caps from their heads. It is rather Slavic.

Transylvanians: I don’t see why are transylvanian peasants different from, other peasants.

Magyar cavalry and Hungarian nobles: Yes they are good for the nomadic period. But their appereance is very unhistorical.

Pslioi: They are good.

Bosnian archers: Hungarians didn’t use too much Bosnians in their army. So I think this unit is useless for the Hungarian faction. But you can keep it if you think. It is not so bad at all.

Slavic soldiers (or what is their name?): They are good.

Croat axemen: Good.

So these are the units what are present in the mod. I think the changes what I said would be good. Later I will come back with plus unit suggestions .
A question: What will dark age like? Because Hungarians were quite different those times. They lived outside the Carpatihian basin, had a nomadic society, a nomadic army with very different units than later, and they were pagans. So it would be good to make a different Hungarian faction for that era. But only if that is possible of course.

[DaVinci]

I would say you can get access to the betaforum, if you want, without real duties ... just what you like to do at most if you have the time: Hungary consulting. PM Lorre for the password, if you wanna enter the beta forum.

[Matthæus]

Croat axemen: Good.

.actually they are not. i explained this on "Hungarian mod" thread before, Croats never used large numbers of axes in combat. especially not 2 hand axes. only in 17 century axe on long pole was used as secondary weapon (first being a musket).
not to mention that model and skin in vanilla has nothing in common with real clothes that Croatians wear in middle ages.

If you are looking a specific Croatian unit that would bee an Dalmatian communal militia (high/late era) or an light cavalry unit (high/late era) or Uskoks/Uskoci (late era). i can give you details if you are interested.

[SicilianVespers]

Thanks for all the information, it sounds like we made a good start with the Hungarians

The Hungarians will definitely have to change for the Darkages.

Off the top of my head, I think we will have to transform the Magyar nobles into something like the Pecheneg Cavalry unit,the Cumans have right now.

Perhaps also a similar unit with bow and saber. Both heavily armoured

[Daray]

Hello!

What do you think about the suggestion of the province split? Or you have something other in mind?

Units:
So as I promised I came back with new unit suggestions. Otherwise I think it would be good to delete those Hungarian nobles and Magyar cavalry. Here I have better things . Let us start it at the early era (I think I will deal with the dark ages separately):

First of all there should be a Hungarian archer. The Hungarian bow was a very feared weapon all around Europe. It is a nomadic bow. The same what the Hungarians used in the nomadic times. The only thing is that they kept it also after they settled down. So it is a completely nomadic bow used by christian europeans. This bow is very strong. It is as strong as the welsh longbow, but smaller so easier to use. Otherwise the Hungarian archers were just as feared in Middle Europe, as the longbowmen were feared in Western Europe. It only came out of fashion at the end of the XV. century. And this bow had a big tradition among Hungarians. Even knights had to now how to use it, although they didn’t used it so often. So this unit should be a strong archer.

And of coure there must be a horearcher unit also. Because the nomadic horsearcher tactic was also used later. Only the apereance of the unit changed. They had now light armour, and used western type swords as a secondary weapon. But they stilled used the Hungarian bow. And they could deal with these horses just as good as in the nomadic times. Here is a picture (otherwise these pictures are corroct because they are reconstruated from miniatures, archeologycal findings and other historical documents):
Attachment 6010

Semi heavy cavalry: Also a usual unit in the early era. They are those horsmen, who remember the nomadic times, but totaly europeans. So they don’t have a complete armour, and have only light weapons, but these things are western type. They look like a bad armoured western type cavalry. They are heavier than normal light cavalry, but lighter than normal heavy cavalry.

A foot unit from these semi heavy warriors would also be good. But they are not essential.

Székelys: It would be good to replace the transylvanian peasants with these. Székelys had a special role in the Hungarian Kingdom. They had only two lords: the king and the lófő. They had to pay no taxes. It is true that they had some special taxes, but they were not so serious. But they had an important duty. They had to guard the borders of Transylvania. So it would be good to make these units as a light infantry, with light or even no armour, carrying a special Hungarian weapon, the „fokos”. This weapon is like an axe, but has a special head. The head is rather small (the shaft is a bit too long), and has a piercing edge and a cutting edge. Here is a picture from it (I’ve found no good picture about the whole weapon. This is only the head with my modifications to see what was it like):
Attachment 6011
Attachment 6012

High era:
Cumans: At 1236 many Cumans entered Hungary with the permission of the king. They were supposed to use against the Mongols. It was important because by this time the Hungarians almost totaly forgot the nomadic warfare, and the Cumans were a good help. And after the Mongol raid they remaind and settled in Hungary, at the Alföld. After it they played an important role in the Hungarian army. They were horsearcher units, and acted as proarmy in an attack and postarmy in a retreat. Here is a picture (I had to cut down the tail and the legs of the horse to fit the maximum file size ):
Attachment 6013

Late era:
Order of the Dragon knights: After the king Sigismundus of Luxemburg got the hungarian throne, he founded an order of knighthood in Hungary. It was called the Order of the Dragon. They were fierce knights. Many Hungarian lords were members of this order. This order was founded for the protecting of the christian faith. Mainly against hussites. This was their symbol:
Attachment 6014

A dragon with a fire cross. Int he cross there is a script: O q(uam) misericors est deus iustus et paciens

Renessaince era:
Black army: At 1460 King Matthias started to organise the Black Army. It contained many types of units. It was a very feared army both in Hungary and abroad. This was the army what conquered Wien, and Steiermark, and Karintia, and Moravia, and Silezia.

If you have any question than ask. Later I will come back with my suggestions for the Dark era.

[SicilianVespers]

I like the province split idea, but I still want to do a more research about the surrounding provinces, before I make a final decision

Great, unit suggestion! I think I have the Opsrey Hungarian book, I will look thru it for some source pics.

[SicilianVespers]

I like the idea of a Dalamtian Militia unit, buildable by both Venice and Hungary?

Matko,
Feel free to add whatever details you think might be useful.

[Daray]

Hello!

.actually they are not.

Ok. To tell you the truth, I’m not so skilled in Croatian warfare. I just agreed, that Hungarians should have a Croatian unit. But if they are uncorrect than delete them.

So let’s talk about the dark age Hungarians.

The map: Before the landtaking the Hungarians were nomads, and moved from Asia, to the Carpathian Basin with many longer stays in different terriotories. Right before the landtaking they lived at the northern coast of the Black Sea. Int he Hungarian scripts and tales, this territory was called Etelköz. Here is a map, about the Hungraian migration. The last stance before the Carpathian Basin is Etelköz.

Attachment 6044

They moved here from Levédia, where they were the servants of the Khazarian Khaganate. After they moved to Etelköz they were no longer the servants of Khazaria. At this time the Hungarians had a nomadic culture. So in the game it would be good to take them to the same culture circle as the Mongols. They lived in yurts, and bred horses. They were the masters of horseback archery.
Their religion was a pagan religion. It is hard to say anything about this religion, but we know some things. They worshipped spirits, and shamans called „táltos”s led the religious life. They escorted some things from this world to later christianity. For example one of the greatest godesses, the Great Happy Mother (Nagyboldogasszony), was later identified with Mary.
At this time the Hungarians had seven tribes: Nyék, Megyer, Kürtgyarmat, Tarján, Jenő, Kér, Keszi. At Etelköz they made a stronger alliance with a compact scaled with blood (Vérszerződés). Here in Etelköz, many kabars (a turcic nation) joined the Hungarians, and from them the leaders organised an 8th tribe. They added a helping army during the raids.
After the Khazarian example the Hungarians had two leaders. One, the „kündü” or in other sources „kende” symbolised the sun and was the religious leader. The other, the „gyula” who symbolised the moon, was the military leader. There were people who had more authority, slaves, and money. They were the lesser chieftains. Let us call them nobles. The Hungarian name of this circle was „bőség” and the members of it were called „bő”s. They had own bodyguards, called the „jobbágy”s. The normal people, the folk was called „ínség” and the members of it were called „ín”s. But they were totaly free, just a bit poor. And of course there were slaves.

Units:
I think there should be a nomadic horsearcher of course. And maybe a foot archer unit, with the same appereance just without a horse. Here is a picture:

Attachment 6045

There sholuld be also a mounted unit using javelins, and a sabre as a secondary weapon. Here is a picture (of course not with a frankish style sword, I don’t know why he has one int he picture):

Attachment 6046

A meele cavalry unit would also be good. Using sabre of course, or if you think you can add them fokos’. Here is a picture:

Attachment 6047

The generals bodyguards could be called „Jobbágyság”. With bows, and a sabre or fokos. Here is the picture:

Attachment 6048

And here is a Hungarian noble. It could be the general unit.


Attachment 6049

„Peasant” infantry would also be good I think. Calling them „Ínség”.


A unit of Kabar horsemen would also be good.


This is what came to my mind now. If you need something better described, than ask. I know it is a bit few information.

Later I will continue with banners.

[SicilianVespers]

Alot of this sounds very familiar, from research I did in the past. A Magyar SCA group provided alot of info for me...this was a few years ago, but will check if I can find it.

Great job!

[EDIT]







Here's a possible event pic (Prince Árpád is crossing the Carpathians):




http://www.hunmagyar.org/tor/medieval.htm

[SicilianVespers]

How does this sound for the two existing provinces:

Pannonia = Magyarország, settlement Székesfehérvár
Szigetvar = Szlavónia (Bánát), settlement Szerèm

Later, if/when we split Hungary proper, we will make it Transdanubia and Alföld.

[EDIT]

What is better:

Szlavónia or Szlavónia Bánát?

Magyarország or Magyarország Fejedelemség?

[EDIT2]

What should be the title for Magyarország be, Fejedelem of Magyarország? or should we put something else like Fejedelem of Balaton or Nitra in this province?

[Daray]

Hello!

Huh. I don't understand these questions at all .

Szerém is not at Szlavónia. It is at the Banate of Szerém. Szlavónia is mainly at the province you named Hrvatska (Because every part of it is in today's Croataia. And a bit in Slovenia.).

Pannonia = Magyarország, settlement Székesfehérvár

This is good.

Szlavónia or Szlavónia Bánát?

Szlavónia is just Szlavónia. Bánát is a completely other territory of medieval Hungary.

Magyarország or Magyarország Fejedelemség?

Only Magyarország. Magyarország means Hungary, and fejedelemség means principality.

What should be the title for Magyarország be, Fejedelem of Magyarország?

Magyarország was a kingdom, so king (or király in hungarian). But, do you want a title for, the province only? If yes then it could be ispán of Székesfehérvár. Or not? Sorry I don't understand this question.

Sorry but I'm not in top form this evening. Can you explain these questions for me, please?
Sorry again.

[SicilianVespers]

Actually, I think you answered my questions.

I like Ispán of Székesfehérvár for the title. Magyarország is really too high a level, but It will have to do for now.

I was under the impression that a Bánság/Bánát was a frontier mark?

[Anonymus]

My suggestion:

at the XV. century (renessaince era) twohanded swordmen should be available. -HRE influenced us much.
-Many 2H-swords remained near the castle ruins and they can be seen now. I've also attached a picture about a great commander, who fought against the turks, in a heroic way.