Political Theory Discussion #1: What is Justice?

[Farnan]

Socrates once famously asked the question, "What is Justice?"

The idea of justice is one that floods the political system of every nation in the world, and the slogans of nearly every political organisation. Many leaders sceam something as being injustice, while others claim to be fighting for justice, whether for the punishment of criminals or so call "social justice."

So here I will ask the question again, what is justice?

[Vladimir Lenin]

Justice=Capitalism

and vice-versa.

What people sow, they reap. What people work for, they get. Unless you start harming others, in that case you need to be punished.

That is justice.

[Kiljan Arslan]

Justice is in the eye of the beholder.

[Farnan]

Justice is in the eye of the beholder.

But what is justice in your eyes?

I know there is no universal, perfect answer, but that is the idea behind the question.

[Vladimir Lenin]

Justice is in the eye of the beholder.

No it's not.

Justice is people getting what they deserve.

If they work hard they should (barring acts of god) be able to reap their rewards.

[Oldgamer]

No it's not.

Justice is people getting what they deserve.

If they work hard they should (barring acts of god) be able to reap their rewards.

Yesterday, over 130 people died when two suicide bombers attempted to kill former Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto, of Pakistan. She survived.

Analyze justice from the standpoint of "Justice is people getting what they deserve." Note that this isn't some kind of debating trick.

Who decides what people deserve, by the way? What is the basis for this decision?

There's a famous line from A Christmas Carol, by Charles Dickens, where the Ghost of Christmas Present chides Scrooge by telling him that it may be that millions of poor children like Tiny Tim are better than he, who has worked a lifetime to achieve wealth, power, and security.

Do you agree with that statement, or an earlier statement by the young Scrooge to his sweetheart, where he says that (paraphrased) "There is nothing that the world derides more than poverty, but hates more than the pursuit of wealth."

Who deserves what, and who decides what they get?

[Vladimir Lenin]

Yesterday, over 130 people died when two suicide bombers attempted to kill former Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto, of Pakistan. She survived.

Analyze justice from the standpoint of "Justice is people getting what they deserve." Note that this isn't some kind of debating trick.

Who decides what people deserve, by the way? What is the basis for this decision?

There's a famous line from A Christmas Carol, by Charles Dickens, where the Ghost of Christmas Present chides Scrooge by telling him that it may be that millions of poor children like Tiny Tim are better than he, who has worked a lifetime to achieve wealth, power, and security.

Do you agree with that statement, or an earlier statement by the young Scrooge to his sweetheart, where he says that (paraphrased) "There is nothing that the world derides more than poverty, but hates more than the pursuit of wealth."

Who deserves what, and who decides what they get?

1. The natural consequences of what happens is what they deserve and what they get. Not the Government handing things out

2. I agree with the statement of young Scrooge.

3. I disagree, Scrooge worked hard, and if he wanted money instead of friends, or love. He made his choice. He was moral.

Hope that clarifies,

$John G.$

[Medicus]

I disagree, Scrooge worked hard, and if he wanted money instead of friends, or love. He made his choice. He was moral.

Amazing, I agree with Galt. Scrooge got what he deserved.

Justice? What's Justice? I have no idea.

[Last Roman]

No it's not.

Justice is people getting what they deserve.

If they work hard they should (barring acts of god) be able to reap their rewards.

the fact that he disagrees is proof enough that it is subjective.

My definition of justice is balance.

[Kiljan Arslan]

Yet did scrooge always make that money in way s that were right or did he make it in ways that were wrong , to you they my be right but to others they may be wrong so therefore Justice is in the eye of the Beholder.

[LSJ]

Justice is when people get what they deserve. The only problem is what do they deserve? What punishment can a murderer face that could possibly give him what he deserves for torturing and killing 20 people? Its impossible... all you can do is imprison or kill him. That's societal revenge at the most, and it does nothing but prevent further crimes, and inadequately sate our thirst for revenge. Its certainly not justice.

In the sense of payments, how much does a hardworking and talented man who works 16 hours a day deserve as payment? Lets just say that he does something critical for the continuation of our society. Well, pop stars make millions with singing, and all that does is entertain us for the 2 minutes the song lasts. Who should get paid what? What should the standard be?

There is no justice because we don't know how to create it.

[Vladimir Lenin]

Yet did scrooge always make that money in way s that were right or did he make it in ways that were wrong , to you they my be right but to others they may be wrong so therefore Justice is in the eye of the Beholder.

Incorrect. They are wrong, I am right.


-$John G.$

[Kiljan Arslan]

Shouldn't this in fact be in the Ethos and Morea sub forum? I mean it is kinda more of a Philisophical question than a Political one if you think about it.

[General_Genocide]

Justice= Truth applied properly

[Farnan]

Justice is when people get what they deserve. The only problem is what do they deserve? What punishment can a murderer face that could possibly give him what he deserves for torturing and killing 20 people? Its impossible... all you can do is imprison or kill him. That's societal revenge at the most, and it does nothing but prevent further crimes, and inadequately sate our thirst for revenge. Its certainly not justice.

In the sense of payments, how much does a hardworking and talented man who works 16 hours a day deserve as payment? Lets just say that he does something critical for the continuation of our society. Well, pop stars make millions with singing, and all that does is entertain us for the 2 minutes the song lasts. Who should get paid what? What should the standard be?

There is no justice because we don't know how to create it.

Say the world was Darkprophetland, what is justice there? I'm not dealing in the real life here, I'm dealing in the theoretical.

Yet did scrooge always make that money in way s that were right or did he make it in ways that were wrong , to you they my be right but to others they may be wrong so therefore Justice is in the eye of the Beholder.

What is justice in your eyes though? I'm not looking for an answer everyone agrees on, I'm looking for the answer in your eyes.

1. The natural consequences of what happens is what they deserve and what they get. Not the Government handing things out

2. I agree with the statement of young Scrooge.

3. I disagree, Scrooge worked hard, and if he wanted money instead of friends, or love. He made his choice. He was moral.

Hope that clarifies,

$John G.$

So all justice is is Social Darwinism applied to its fullest, and thus justice is not in the hands of the government?

Justice= Truth applied properly

Please expand.


And about the placement of this thread: Yes this thread is philosophical, but it is political philosophy. The idea of justice is a keystone of nearly every political idealogy, and nearly ever idealogy has a different definition.

[Vladimir Lenin]

So all justice is is Social Darwinism applied to its fullest, and thus justice is not in the hands of the government?

Correct.

If for example I work hard in a company, the boss realizing I'm very productive may give me a raise so I can be productive in a diffrent area.

Justice is what naturally happens to you, regardless of Government handing out paychecks. (Note Gov't still has duty to protect Citizens from Fraud and violence)

[Oldgamer]

In Matthew 7, Jesus formulates the greatest rule of justice ever conceived, in my opinion, when He says, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

So, I approach the question of justice ... even in the philosophical and political realms ... from the standpoint of Christian justice.

In general, Christian justice stems from a thorough understanding of ourselves. We approach others by noting our own lusts, obduracy, self-love, and egoism. When we are aware of who and what we are, we approach others with a thorough self-knowledge, so that we can be forgiving and compassionate to others, and cover their faults with kindness and Christian love.

Why has the world fallen into the state that it has? Because the only faults we see are other people's faults. Quite apart from John's live of self based upon the works of Ayn Rand ... he's young, and he'll grow out of it ... Christian justice is a ruthless examination of self, so that our treatment of others can be in keeping with Christ's command.

Note that this has nothing to do with corrections, except in the application of mercy for those who deserve it.

[Kiljan Arslan]

Justice is what has the most truth and the most right.

[rathelios]

Societal justice is a means to make people do what they are supposed to do for the good of society. This is not justice.

Personal justice is the desire to wreak vengeance on those who have wronged us. This seems like justice to each of us but is not justice for anyone else.
Even though it is not justice this personal conception of justice is the closest to a definition it is possible to come because justice is a human derived concept. (We made it up.)

Therefore true justice does not and cannot exist. This is a universal law. Meaning it is ubiquitous. We cannot have the good without the potential for bad. We must accept the bad when it inevitably happens with equanimity because without it there would be no good, only endless shades of grey rolling off to infinity.

[Thanatos]

Only God can truly answer that. It simply IS, and cannot be defined in words.