Knowledge - but not through learning

[Zenith Darksea]

Orthodox spirituality is knowledge acquired through suffering rather than through learning.
- Blessed Mother Gavrilia of Athens

When somebody here in the West (where I live) thinks about the Orthodox Church, especially if that person is a Protestant Christian, one of the most common thoughts to come to their mind is how much we Orthodox seem to focus on opulence and decoration - gold, incense, icons. Of course it's true that an Orthodox church has all of these, yet many people do not see any further than that. This in turn leads to people saying, "Well, all that gold and those icons are fine for people like them, but it's got nothing to do with my culture."

Certainly the Orthodox are rich in material traditions; Orthodox religious art can even be found in Protestant churches these days (much to my own surprise). The Orthodox also have a rich intellectual tradition, though admittedly it has not reached many people in the West in an obvious way (though it has reached them). What isn't so clear however is a much deeper tradition - the tradition of Orthodox spirituality.

It seems from my encounters (and my own personal experience in the past) that most Westerners don't see beyond the realms of material and intellect: yet the real riches of Orthodoxy lie in the intangible realm. The quote above from Mother Gavrilia of Athens sums up very well the nature of spirituality. You can learn to paint, and you can learn to form theories about God, and theories and icons will help you recognise God's presence, but they won't by themselves bring you to God.

Why does a monk spend his days in labour and fasting? Why does a hermit retreat to the desert to pray? Why does Christianity value most those who are tortured and killed for God's sake?

Since, according to Mother Gavrilia, "A person's most vulnerable spot is found in much talking and discussing," I'll end this rambling post here with some more of Mother Gavrilia's sayings:

Do not wish for many things, whether they are within or out of reach. Instead, take care to sanctify the little you have.

Let God intervene between you and your purpose, instead of letting your purpose intervene between you and God.

Better hell in this world than in the other.

[Da Skinna]

What? Nobody responded yet?

Absolutely true, which is not the same as being an absolute truth; this post is very good in provoking ideas that introduces the concept that knowledge isn't merely done in schools, but is something once recognized, becomes an endless supply of self-discovery.

The abstract is something not easy to narrow in on, and to recognize that I think, and realize all the fears and wandrous wonder that we held in our lives, is something that simply cannot be entirely narrowed in on.

Life happens, and to recognize that, is to perhaps take a step forward in realizing your own self, rather than just accepting your self. An entirely different thing.



Think about it, did I swing and miss? I easily could have,

[Silver Guard]

"You only have one life, just get on with it!"
Quite simply you only get one shot. Even in Buddhism, this is a win/loose situation, you either make it or you don't. They press threats of what happens if you're mean-spirited or materialistic, that you might find yourself a slug in another life (grossly oversimplified). Christianity, Judaism, Islam, and various others all use the same device, hell. The ten commandments given are only likely followed by at most the highest 0.01% of Christians, with such things as "honour the sabbath" and "honour your paretnts" being kept by only the barest minimum of people. Then stems greed, something within us as humans by nature, and blasphemy.
Quite simply, hell is a very difficult place to miss, especially in Judaism. When the all-forgiving God is introduced then it makes things easier right? Not quite. You have to be sorry for your sins... and mean it. How many people feel sorry about saying "oh God" or "Jesus Christ" or shouting to their mother, or stocking wood on a sunday? Very very few.

I'm sentenced to hell, as the bible decrees, for those such as me, who have known of God and rejected him, there "shall be no forgiveness". Most likely nearly everyone in this forum is. So why continue to strive against the inevitable? It's your one shot at life, enjoy it. Pain is not necessary, better one hell then two.

[Zenith Darksea]

What you say isn't surprising, Eclipse. Indeed, it is a point often made that Christianity is for the few, not the many, and the path that leads to destruction is much wider than the path to salvation. One of the points made by Mother Gavrilia and most other Orthodox staretsi however is not just how to be more assured of satisfaction in the next life, but in this one as well. If we acquire humility, and wish for nothing, then we shall always be satisfied, though if we keep trying to satisfy our material desires, then we shall never be satisfied.

At the end of the day, ask yourself: "Is there anything I want?" No. "Is there anything I wish?" No. "Is there anything I lack?" No... So, that's it!

In fact, one of my favourite sayings of Mother Gavrilia (apart from the first one I gave in this thread) is:

When the mind is not distracted by worldly matters and remains united to God, then even the 'good day' that we say becomes a blessing.

Hell is not inevitable, Eclipse. It is easy to get there, but it is not inevitable. What is more, a dedication to materialism will only ever lead to disappointment, from whichever angle you look at it.

[Spurius]

As the famous American philosopher Clint Eastwood remarked once: 'A man's gotta know his limitations'.

Goes for anyone religious or not, but I don't see how that's different from learning anything else.

[Silver Guard]

What you say isn't surprising, Eclipse. Indeed, it is a point often made that Christianity is for the few, not the many, and the path that leads to destruction is much wider than the path to salvation. One of the points made by Mother Gavrilia and most other Orthodox staretsi however is not just how to be more assured of satisfaction in the next life, but in this one as well. If we acquire humility, and wish for nothing, then we shall always be satisfied, though if we keep trying to satisfy our material desires, then we shall never be satisfied.

I see no harm in the lives that some of the more devout lead but pointlessness, borne by my Atheist views. However, although I am not exactly a materialist myself (restricting drinking to once a fortnight or month, which at my age is quite a restriction), I take to much comfort in the material to do without, and I have no pressure to change my ways. I see more reason in being selfless and helping others then wasting away in the wilderness for a cause which does not exist.

At the end of the day, ask yourself: "Is there anything I want?" No. "Is there anything I wish?" No. "Is there anything I lack?" No... So, that's it!

However, there are things I covet, there are things I wish for and in my eyes there are things I lack, even though none are necessities.

Hell is not inevitable, Eclipse. It is easy to get there, but it is not inevitable. What is more, a dedication to materialism will only ever lead to disappointment, from whichever angle you look at it.

It is for me, and other stout atheists based in logic. Because quite simply we cannot be sorry for what we think, and so even if we could be saved, we will not be.

[Tankbuster]

It is for me, and other stout atheists based in logic. Because quite simply we cannot be sorry for what we think, and so even if we could be saved, we will not be.

How can atheists like us get into a hell we do not believe in?


Things are a lot of easier when you're atheist. You only have one life, no hell, no after-life. That means you don't have any whatsoever to eternal happiness (which is just a religious illusion anyway).

After 70 years wandering on this earth, you're just DEAD. I don't understand what's so difficult to understand.

Besides, who would want eternal happiness? Eternal rest is more than enough for me.

[Zenith Darksea]

Because quite simply we cannot be sorry for what we think, and so even if we could be saved, we will not be.

That's an utterly false statement, in my view. First of all, you are making no distinctions between different types of thoughts, nor motivations for thoughts. Indeed I think that most people are sorry for at least some of the thoughts they've had in their lives, no matter what character those thoughts are. Many thoughts originate from pride, self-centredness and lack of humility, and not only can we be sorry for those thoughts, but the lives of the Christian saints alone demonstrate that people are sorry for them.

[Mathias]

That's an utterly false statement, in my view. First of all, you are making no distinctions between different types of thoughts, nor motivations for thoughts. Indeed I think that most people are sorry for at least some of the thoughts they've had in their lives, no matter what character those thoughts are. Many thoughts originate from pride, self-centredness and lack of humility, and not only can we be sorry for those thoughts, but the lives of the Christian saints alone demonstrate that people are sorry for them.

I have never been sorry for any of my thoughts, and I doubt I could be. To be honest, I have never had a bad conscience. If I don't have a conscience, how can I then be sorry? I can regret, but only because the act had a bad consequence for me, but that does not apply to thoughts. So then, am I doomed to hell?

[Silver Guard]

That's an utterly false statement, in my view. First of all, you are making no distinctions between different types of thoughts, nor motivations for thoughts.

Distinction - Atheist thoughts
Motivations - Can be anything leading to lack of belief.

Indeed I think that most people are sorry for at least some of the thoughts they've had in their lives, no matter what character those thoughts are. Many thoughts originate from pride, self-centredness and lack of humility, and not only can we be sorry for those thoughts, but the lives of the Christian saints alone demonstrate that people are sorry for them.

Of course, but I am referring only to "our" (we being Atheists) thoughts, those of non-belief, which I doubt any will ever be sorry for, even after death.

How can atheists like us get into a hell we do not believe in?

Because it might exist, however unlikely

[Thanatos]

I thought this was a discussion on intuition...

[Cluny the Scourge]

Supposing that spirituality is acquired through suffering, rather than learning - that at least is a coherent statement - why should it be "Orthodox spirituality" as the "Blessed Mother" says, rather than any of the other 1,000+ types of spirituality? People suffer all over the world - probably far more than most people who end up calling themselves Orthodox Christians do - without spontaneously bursting out into Bible verses in Greek and parading ikons around the streets.

Suffering is just as likely to lead to Taoist, Buddhist, Shintoist or Voodoo spirituality. And even MORE likely to lead to mere brutalisation of the spirit, and a hardening to pity or love. The most evil people in the world became so through suffering.

[Irishman]

Why is it not learning? Learning is inferring standards from previous experiences, whether from people or your own.

Granted I think that the "spirituality" gained by suffering is a misattribution of the cause, but it still is learning.

[Zenith Darksea]

I think that Mother Gavrilia meant more traditional forms of academic/scientific learning when she said that.

why should it be "Orthodox spirituality" as the "Blessed Mother" says, rather than any of the other 1,000+ types of spirituality?

Because that's what she was talking about at the time, and to Orthodox people as well.

[Amorphos]

suffering causes one to look deeper into themselves, in fact it demands it. the most strenuous of times in ones life brings us to a deepening of the psyche, it is there where we come more in contact with ‘divinity’. it still involves understanding and intellectual deduction, we have to work things out.

i think it so that the deeper one goes into the heart of the psyche, the deeper we go into the heart of reality itself, the two are parallel in my mind.

this does not necessitate Christian thought though! it is the means by which most every philosopher or religious teacher has arrived at ‘truth’. for me it has been more about tao and buddhism mixed with a universal perspective.

interesting post!