DISCUSSION: Guild Ideas and thoughts

[Ahiga]

As per Mirage's suggestion, this will be the topic devoted to the brainstorming and conversation of concepts and suggestions regarding guilds for Broken Crescent.

A disclaimer: I should note that while we are interested in the effects a guild has, currently that interest is primarily towards effects beyond unit recruitment or changes. Hence, guilds which effect more than 1 faction and which offer changes unrelated to units but more towards generals or the settlement itself are more likely. We have not decided if any guilds will recruit units, as while that opens up interesting venues, it also presents a problem towards bridging the gaps we wanted there to be.

All suggestions are only suggestions and there is no guarantee they will be added. We appreciate the ideas and valuable input, but all decisions will be made behind closed doors, and may result in large changes to the identity of Guilds in our Mod.

This is an open discussion for ideas and ways to implement them in regards to guilds in Broken Crescent. We don't know the full extent of what's possible, but any and all ideas are free to be pitched and discussed as we can always tweak them in order to fit into the constraints of the engine.

Any and all suggestions are fine, but if you wish to follow a formula to make your idea more clear, then below is an example for how it could look. The formula contains the basic ideas of what a guild would need, but your suggestions could be as simple as 'hey it would be cool to have an alchemist guild', to something as complex as something following the formula below. Whatever you would prefer as a medium to express your idea.



Guild Concept Name: Not the name of the guild itself necessarily but the 'conceptual' name, which is what the idea is referred by. It should give an idea of the guild idea itself, so for instance a name might be "Ismaili Brotherhood".
Religons/Cultures/Faction's with Access: Is it only Catholic, Muslim, Eastern Christian? Is it only those who would count as Persian (Ghazni/Ghorid) or Turkish, or is it a specific faction like the Ayyubids or georgia? Those that cover more than one faction will be given more attention than those that cover only one.
Historical Relevance: Why should it be added as a guild? Would it make a big difference if it wasn't featured?
How to access it: Just a very rough idea of how you would get access to this guild. What might be done to warrant their interest in settling in your city.
Effects: This is the meat of the suggestion. What does it add? Recruitment of specific units? Benefits towards your city? Towards your General's traits and ancillaries? Is there any penalty tied into the guild?

[Miraj]

One thing that would really add alot of immersiveness for muslim faction is to allow a muslim player to sponsor various "Islamic Schools of Thought" or Madhabs.

These were basically doctrinal groups within Sunni Islam that would form a certain interpretation of Islamic tenents and attitudes. Certain schools of thought, like the Mutazalites, would be very liberal, scientifically minded and rationalist. Other schools of thought like the Hanbalis - precursors to today's Salafi/Wahabi sects - would be very strict, enforce sharia on people and much more closed minded.

Guild wise this would translate into a Muslim faction having to choose between 3-4 major "Madhabs". If you pick the more conservative brands of Islam, you'll gain more religious order and more pious governors, but less tech advances and such. While picking more rationalist schools of thought could open the path to more technological advances, enlightened admins though reduce conversion rates and piety of governors.

[Shadibadoo]

We must be very careful not to be inaccurate in representing Madhabs. For one thing, the Hanbalis are very small, about 3 percent of Muslims, and limited to regions of Arabia. And the Mutazalites were an early greco-roman influenced school that disappeared way before the 11th century and had no prominence. To say one school is liberal and another is closeminded is oversimplifying things. The difference was between "Scriptural evidence" and "philosophical evidence" for religious guidelines. By the time of this Mod the scriptural evidence won, but the liberalism or advancement of a faction would have nothing to do with this. The mainstream schools are Maliki, Shaf'i, Hanafi, and Hanbali. They're methodologies for determining the details of practice and the permissability of some deeds, and have nothing to do with free thought or technology. In fact, the Universities, Jama', Grand mosques, or whatever it is we build in vanilla version is likely a place of scholarhood for these four madhabs.

[Miraj]

We must be very careful not to be inaccurate in representing Madhabs. For one thing, the Hanbalis are very small, about 3 percent of Muslims, and limited to regions of Arabia. And the Mutazalites were an early greco-roman influenced school that disappeared way before the 11th century and had no prominence. To say one school is liberal and another is closeminded is oversimplifying things. The difference was between "Scriptural evidence" and "philosophical evidence" for religious guidelines. By the time of this Mod the scriptural evidence won, but the liberalism or advancement of a faction would have nothing to do with this. The mainstream schools are Maliki, Shaf'i, Hanafi, and Hanbali. They're methodologies for determining the details of practice and the permissability of some deeds, and have nothing to do with free thought or technology. In fact, the Universities, Jama', Grand mosques, or whatever it is we build in vanilla version is likely a place of scholarhood for these four madhabs.

Well, my 'idea' was not intended to be a precise portrayal of the complexities of islamic religious philosophies or doctrines. I was just trying to find a way to portay in a "gamey" way that a faction could choose its religious nature and the subsequent benefits of it. You have to remember that this is TW, so things will be vastly oversimplified with respect to pretty much everything. There is no escaping that.

As far as the issue of technology and "open-mindedness" goes I think thats a matter of opinion and perhaps I'd be wiser to avoid that angle. But IMO I think that how Islamic societies' approached faith determined a lot of what would eventually become of the rationalist and scientific progress in that part of the world. However, I do not want to get into a religious/historical debate with anyone, hence I'll probably avoid this whole idea.

[Sher Khan]

Sup guys.


Guild Concept Name: Karimi Merchant Guild
Religons/Cultures/Faction's with Access: Favored Islamic world, but I see no reason why they wouldn't set up shop in a Christian faction's lands.
Historical Relevance: During the 11th-13th centuries, the "Karimis", the earliest multinational organization, enterprise and business group controlled by capitalistic entrepreneurs, came to dominate much of the Islamic world's economy. The group was controlled by about fifty Muslim merchants labelled as "Karimis" who were of Yemeni, Egyptian, and sometimes Indian origins. Each Karimi merchant had considerable wealth, ranging from at least 100,000 dinars to as much as 10 million dinars. The group had considerable influence in most important eastern markets ...

[sourced: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic...market_economy ]

How to access it: I assume an economy point system to draw their interests.

Effects: A suped-up Islamic merchants guild (like Hashashim's guild to the normal Assassin's guild).




I also imagine it'd be cool to have a sort of Physician's guild (though technically they would simply belong to the Birmaristans) which would give further health bonuses, retraining cost reduction, etc.

[Fenix_120]

Hey guys, thought I'd give it a shot for the westerners.



Guild Concept Name: Genoese Sailors 'Ar

Religons/Cultures/Faction's with Access: It would be limited to the Byzantines, but it is noted that the Genoese set up a trade post in Crimea and many black sea areas, so possibly any faction that controls that area as well.

Historical Relevance: After the taking of Constantinople by Venetian forces(who were once their allies) in the year 1204, the weakened Byzantine empire had to find a powerful new mar time ally that shared a common goal and soon.

Luckily for them, the Genoese were ready and willing to come to their aid.

Even after the collapse of the Crusader states the Genoese continued to aid the Eastern Empire with troops and munitions until its destruction in 1453.

At this last event however it is said that the Genoese let the heat of battle cloud their better judgment, and attacked the newly re-allied Venetian forces at least on one account during the siege.

How to access it:
Becomes available to the Eastern Empire after the events of the fourth crusade, possible by building ports and trading posts.

Effects: possibly by building ports and trading posts.
Upgrades archers and crossbowmens valor(they would have Genoese drill sergeants and crossbows,I did not want to put allows training of Genoese crossbows because I did not know if this would be in the mod, but if they are then by all means use those) and increase trade goods( a minor increase in trade goods though)


http://www.answers.com/topic/genoa?cat=travel

[IrAr]

Fenix, you beat me to it.

[Fenix_120]

Fenix, you beat me to it.

I was also going add a Venetian 'Ar, but I decided against it as they were pretty much their own faction after the fourth crusade


Ohh yeah, 'Ars were guilds inside of Italy and some of them have been around since before the Roman era.


Sounds cooler than "Merchants guild"

[Miraj]

Couldn't the Genoese Sailor guild apply to Armenia too? Wasn't cilicia a christian gateway between Europe and the mideast? Nonetheless its a fantastic idea.

@Sher Khan
Great find!

[IrAr]

Couldn't the Genoese Sailor guild apply to Armenia too? Wasn't cilicia a christian gateway between Europe and the mideast? Nonetheless its a fantastic idea.

@Sher Khan
Great find!

Yes! My idea was all Christians.
New one.
Guild Concept Name: Armenian Auxilia Barracks
Religons/Cultures/Faction's with Access: Ayyubid Sultanate
Historical Relevance: Used to a lesser extent than the Fatimids, but enough to the point that Saladin rewarded his Armenian soldiers with a Piece of the Cross after Hattin
How to access it: Hold a few Holy Land Settlements (?)
Effects: Maybe an Armenian Merc unit or two for recruitment, possible 'Armenian Vizier' trait, though that may be outdate (effects may include better trade, but less piety), increases trade and religious unrest

[Miraj]

Another important idea that could be applied for the Islamic factions is the Futuwa.

Google Book

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Futuwa

Futuwwa was also a name of ethical urban organizations Akhi in 13th and 14th century Anatolia. Members were united through the practices of Sufi worship and a form of common property.

Historical origin of futuwwa groups is obscure. They were ideologically connected to Sufi mystics who used to refer to futuwwa as a moral direction.

Through membership in a futuwwa group, artisans and crafters were linked to other social groups and vice versa. This served as a social connection that stabilized the local community and balanced the power of the aristocracy. Futuwwa groups often influenced the course of political events and were definitely a part of the community. Different futuwwa leaders could have serious rivalries.

Some futuwwas were equivalent of trade guilds with sufi ideology, preference for self-government and forming a counter-force to power of Turkish despots.

One form of futuwwa was a social group. The leader of the group would furnish a hospice. At the end of the workday members would bring the money that they used to buy the food and drink for the hospice. They entertained travelers with elaborate banquets or, if no traveler came that day, enjoyed the feast themselves with song and dance. They also invested in charities (vakif). According to Ibn Battuta, members were called fityan (young) and group leaders were called akhi.

Another form was Warriors for the Faith, that is, warbands or warrior societies. Some of these were just glorified bands of brigands. However, for example, in 1100s in Damascus, Ibn Jubayr founded an organization called the Nubuya that fought the fanatic Shi'a sects in Syria.

Abbasid Caliph an-Nasir (1158–1225) approved of and supported futuwas. In 1182 he organized a warrior futuwa that was for all practical purposes a knightly order with mounted warriors. He became the head of the order and gathered ruling princes and other notables to its membership. It continued for some time after the death of its founder.

This military futuwa was also practiced by Javans, mercenary soldiers of 10th and 11th centuries in Khurasan, Persia (although they may have also had non-Muslim soldiers amongst them). Apparently it may have been a model for janissaries.

Haven't thought of the details, but it seems like a feasible historical idea to implement.

[Sher Khan]

So I'm guessing it would serve as a combination tourney field/knightly order guild.

I say let it give bonuses to high tier cavalry recruited from cities (or wherever it is founded at) but also trigger a couple of chivalry and piety bonuses for generals.

[akd]

"Guilds" (I kinda wish we could drop that term, as it is so strongly associated with medieval Europe) might be an interesting way to portray different aspects of "convivencia" (i.e. the mutually beneficial meeting/coexistence of faiths). You might have, for example, an institution that provides a strong technological/societal advancement but brings with it the growth of a foreign religion. In general, these could be various "buildings" that are independent of the "tech tree" (and as such are not bound by chronology or material advancement). This would provide a very interesting dynamic of positive and negative effects. Frankly, I'd need to know more about the system that underlies guilds in Vanilla to make specific suggestions, as I really hadn't paid much attention to them in the past (the choice to build a guild always seemed rather automatic to me). Anyone have a link to a guide?

[CtrlAltDe1337]

How about Genoese/Venetian/Pisan guilds that anyone can build along the mediterranean sea (if thats possible) that slightly boosts trade and gives experience bonuses or a unit (an "Italian quarter" type building). I think it would be cool to have all three of these and give them different bonuses to represent the competition between the different Italian trader powers. One could give a unit, another experience, another a public health bonus, etc. You could (maybe) even get missions from the guilds to attack other factions they don't like or get in on certain trade hotspots. I don't know much about Islamic history in the Middle Ages, so I can't be of much help there. Maybe various tribal guilds?

[Darkarbiter]

Don't forget also that guilds can give out missions...
however some of the missions in m2tw are just plain stupid. For example... the capture rebel settlement missions... it's gonna really break immersion if your asked to do this when you have 1 army on one side of the river and an (hostile) neutral army on the other... and you are both at the brink at war and then some messege comes up saying "capture rebel settlement x the rebels are an insult" and then later you get a messege telling you how stupid you are.

However missions like "convert x amount of population to religion y" would probably make more sense in any situation. The guild ideas so far are great!
Note also that I believe that guilds can be set to exclude other guilds. (In vanilla all guilds excluded all other guilds making it not possible to have more then one)

[Ahiga]

It is possible that to be more suited towards recruitment, Guilds would augment existing buildings and merely be an additional requirement for certain units. Hence, having Guild X in Settlement 2 would have unit Y fit into their stables, archery range, or barracks at a certain level, rather than being as part of the guild's recruitment itself.

Also, we may not go with guild's offering unit recruitment at all, and may instead go with their effects being more behind the scenes, with traits and ancillaries as well as other effects less felt than with units. That is not to say you should not suggest those with units, but merely a warning to not expect anything in particular. I wish to reinforce that as this topic is devoted to brainstorming of a more fluid nature, and we may decide to change direction with guilds or not go in any direction with them at all. It's not for anything said that I do this, but rather for anything that might be said. So long as this is recognized, then there's no worries.

[Khaine]

Hi, I'd like to share some ideas:

Guild Concept Name: Seamans Guild
Access: Factions around the Indian Ocean, the Red Sea and the Sea of Oman (Oman, Sindh, Rajput, Makuria ??) or limited to coastal cities there
Historical Relevance: The sea trade between Africa , Asia and India was quite important at that time. The Indian Ocean Trade began with small trading settlements around 800 A.D. As trade intensified between Africa, the Arabic peninsula and Asia, powerful city-states flourished along the eastern coast of Africa. The city-states traded with inland kingdoms like Great Zimbabwe to obtain gold, ivory, and iron. These materials were then sold to places like India, Southeast Asia, and China. At the same time, the East African city-states were buying items from Asia. Many residents of the city-states were willing to pay high prices for cotton, silk, and porcelain objects. Arab traders were often the link between those different regions.
How to access it: Have at least two or more shipyards and built a certain amount of ships (??). + A lot more for the higher levels
Effects: Level 1 : better admirals (?) or experience bonus for ships (?)
Level 2: same as above + trade bonus
Level 3 (HQ): same as abobe + trade bonus (global effect)


Guild Concept Name: Dar Al Aalm (house of the lettered)
Access: Muslim factions
Historical Relevance: Arab science was the most evolved at that time (medecine, astrology, alchemy, ...). We might represent this fact.
How to access it: ?? After a certain level of administraive buildings or mosqus or birmaristan ??
Effects: Level 1 : disminished squalor (?) or trait bonus for generals

[Khaine]

Another idea

Guild Concept Name: Bedouin tribes
Access: Muslim factions around the arabic peninsula (Abbassids, Ayyubids, Oman) or regional implementation (if possible)
Historical Relevance: Most bedouin tribes were independant from the empires or kingdoms in the region. Those tribes represented strong forces on the local political scene. They were often used as mercenaries or temporary troops.
How to access it: Trade posts or else ?? limited to cities in the region
Effects: Acces to bedouin troops (same as available mercenaries cf AoR: maybe one dismounted and one mounted, tier 1 to tier 3 equivalent) They would be cheaper than normal mercenaries but slow resplenish rate.

Pbl not really a revolutionary idea. but why not ?

[akd]

Hmm...guilds should not be used to add new units unless it is an exceptionally unique unit that could be beneficial to any faction's roster without affecting balance, with the exception of mercenary units that would make more sense tied to factors other than AOR (and wouldn't be addressed by the Kingdoms unit recruitment via culture/religion feature). Guilds should affect trade, diplomacy, religion, character traits and unit experience/quality.

Guild Concept Name: Wootz steel importer
Religons/Cultures/Faction's with Access: Possibly Muslim/Hindu only (or percentage religion present?) due to historical transmission of knowledge/technology. Some factions might begin with the guild present.
Historical Relevance: Many areas of the Middle East were poor in quality iron ore, thus in order to equip armies with quality equipment, other factions would have to be accessed to import high quality wootz steel from the East.
How to access it: Not sure if this is possible for a guild, but should require trade relations with particular areas (but unfortunately trade relations are with factions, not areas) and/or the presence of a merchant/merchants from your faction on the resource in that area, and also possibly a certain level of trade infrastructure.
Effects: +1 armor upgrade to all chain, metal lammelar and plate equipped units (stat upgrade, not visual), possibly coming with increased unit recruitment/retraining costs (although cost could be handled through guild creation). May need a weighter negative to balance decision to build.

Guild Concept Name: Damascene Swordsmith
Religons/Cultures/Faction's with Access: Possibly Muslim/Hindu only (or percentage religion present?) due to historical transmission of knowledge/technology. Some factions might begin with the guild present.
Historical Relevance: Particular techniques were used to forge high quality blades from Wootz steel. These techniques were closely guarded secrets.
How to access it: Requires Wootz Steel Importer (or several importers in various settlements?) and possibly an advanced institution of learning present in settlement.
Effects: +1 weapon upgrade (stat upgrade, not visual) to all "noble/elite" units or units utilizing primary blade weapons (swords and war axes only), possibly coming with increased unit recruitment/retraining costs (although cost could be handled through guild creation). May need a weighter negative to balance decision to build.

I'm not sure I would want to see Christian/Western factions with a perfect mirror set of guilds under a different name. There would have been more of an emphasis on the importation of already made weapons in Christian factions, particularly the Crusader States (but also ERE to some large degree). These guilds would depend more on trade dynamics than knowledge/learning dynamics. Possibly a concept down this line:

Guild Concept Name: Italian Arms Importer
Religons/Cultures/Faction's with Access: There is little rationale to restrict this to Christian only (or even % Christian) other than game balance as needed.
Historical Relevance: The highest quality arms and armor generally arrived from Europe, either on the backs of Crusaders or via trade.
How to access it: This is tricky. Perhaps a certain port level and trade income is necessary before it can be accessed?
Effects: +1 armor upgrade to all chain/plate (lamellar removed, not imported from Europe) equipped units and +1 weapon upgrade to all "noble/elite" units (stat upgrade, not visual), possibly coming with increased unit recruitment/retraining costs (although cost could be handled through guild creation). May need an even weighter negative to balance decision to build, or a second tier could be added as with the Damascene smiths.


Perhaps any faction could access the above guild lines, but have to choose either the Eastern or Western route, not both?

[Miraj]

Very, very cool ideas AKD.