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  1. #1
    Big War Bird's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default DNA Discoverer: Blacks Less Intelligent Than Whites

    Wednesday, October 17, 2007

    By Paul Wagenseil


    One of the world's most eminent scientists has created a racial firestorm in Britain.

    James D. Watson, 79, co-discoverer of the DNA helix and winner of the 1962 Nobel Prize in medicine, told the Sunday Times of London that he was "inherently gloomy about the prospect of Africa" because "all our social policies are based on the fact that their intelligence is the same as ours — whereas all the testing says not really."

    He recognized that the prevailing belief was that all human groups are equal, but that "people who have to deal with black employees find this not true."

    • Click here to read the full Sunday Times of London profile.

    Acknowledging that the issue was a "hot potato," the lifelong Democrat and avowed secular humanist nonetheless said his beliefs were not an excuse to discriminate against blacks.

    "There are many people of color who are very talented," said Watson, "but don't promote them when they haven't succeeded at the lower level."

    He told the interviewer, a former student of his, that he had recently inaugurated a DNA learning center near Harlem, and would like to have more black researchers at his lab, "but there's no one to recruit."

    • Click here to visit FOXNews.com's Human Body Center.

    • Click here to visit FOXNews.com's Natural Science Center.

    Steven Rose, a professor of biological sciences at the Open University in Britain, was quick to dismiss Watson's comments.

    "This is Watson at his most scandalous, " Rose told the Times of London. "If he knew the literature in the subject, he would know he was out of his depth scientifically, quite apart from socially and politically."

    Watson is the former director and current chancellor of the Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory biological-research institution on New York's Long Island, and both admired and infamous for bluntly speaking his mind.

    In a British television documentary in 2003, Watson advised eliminating low intelligence through gene therapy.

    "If you are really stupid, I would call that a disease," said Watson, according to New Scientist magazine. "The lower 10 percent who really have difficulty, even in elementary school, what's the cause of it?

    "A lot of people would like to say, 'Well, poverty, things like that.' It probably isn't," he added. "So I'd like to get rid of that, to help the lower 10 percent."

    He also touched upon sexual attraction in the same TV program.

    "People say it would be terrible if we made all girls pretty," Watson said. "I think it would be great."

    In 2000, he told a lecture audience at U.C. Berkeley that there was a correlation between a population's exposure to sunlight and its sex drive.

    "That's why you have Latin lovers," Watson said, according to the San Francisco Chronicle. "You've never heard of an English lover. Only an English patient."

    The notion that intelligence tests and other scientific evidence shows that racial groups differ in intelligence, at least statistically, is not a new one.

    It last gained popular attention in 1994 with "The Bell Curve," a best-selling book written by Harvard psychologist Richard J. Herrnstein (who died before publication) and political scientist Charles Murray, which argued that intelligence was more important than socio-economic background or education in achieving success in American life.

    The book does not explicitly ascribe a genetic, racial connection to intelligence, but Murray in his publicity tour to promote the book cited studies that human intelligence could be ranked by ancestry, with East Asians and European Jews leading the way.

    That view was more clearly stated in 1995 by British-Canadian psychologist J. Philippe Rushton, whose "Race, Evolution and Behavior: A Life History Perspective" quantified dozens of differences between blacks, whites and Asians.

    In the 1970s, electronics pioneer William Shockley, who won the 1956 Nobel Prize in physics, said that the human race would suffer as less intelligent people outbred more intelligent ones, with the greatest damage to occur in the black American population.

    Most sociologists, geneticists and psychologists reject the notion of racial differences in intelligence, pointing out that economic and social factors clearly influence IQ test scores.

    The issue of race itself is scientifically controversial, with some arguing that it is a meaningless term and others saying that consistent traits occur among individuals of shared ancestry.

    Watson is currently in Britain promoting his just-published new volume of memoirs, "Avoid Boring People: Lessons From a Life in Science."

    "There is no firm reason to anticipate that the intellectual capacities of peoples geographically separated in their evolution should prove to have evolved identically," he writes. "Our wanting to reserve equal powers of reason as some universal heritage of humanity will not be enough to make it so."
    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,302836,00.html

    Wow, just wow!
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    Bokks's Avatar Thinking outside Myself
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    Default Re: DNA Discoverer: Blacks Less Intelligent Than Whites

    Quote Originally Posted by Big War Bird View Post
    Wow, just wow!
    I agree. It's wierd how contradictory it is, but hey, that's science.
    Personally I'd say that any differences in intelligence are based on social and economical constructs. The fact that Watson said it, though, is really wierd.
    He's a blunt man, but not a racist. He's probably just a victim of the fact that socio-economic states bump any validity a bit off track.
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    Justice and Mercy's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: DNA Discoverer: Blacks Less Intelligent Than Whites

    Quote Originally Posted by Lector V View Post
    Personally I'd say that any differences in intelligence are based on social and economical constructs.
    Exactly. Saying that "blacks are less intelligent than whites" doesn't mean blacks are inherently less intelligent than whites.

    And I don't even think they are.
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    Default Re: DNA Discoverer: Blacks Less Intelligent Than Whites

    *laughs*

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    Default Re: DNA Discoverer: Blacks Less Intelligent Than Whites

    Can you say "racism"?


  6. #6
    Trax's Avatar It's a conspiracy!
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    Default Re: DNA Discoverer: Blacks Less Intelligent Than Whites

    Personally I'd say that any differences in intelligence are based on social and economical constructs. The fact that Watson said it, though, is really wierd.
    Yes, I think that if race has any effect at all it's so small that it becomes impossible to separate from social and economic factors.
    Last edited by Trax; October 18, 2007 at 08:22 AM.

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    Zodiac's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: DNA Discoverer: Blacks Less Intelligent Than Whites

    Ummmm, what about John Washington Carver and all the other guys? You can't say they weren't smart.
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    Default Re: DNA Discoverer: Blacks Less Intelligent Than Whites

    Quote Originally Posted by Zodiac View Post
    Ummmm, what about John Washington Carver and all the other guys? You can't say they weren't smart.
    They were, and that's the thing.

    Every black individual has the exact same potential as every white individual.

    However, social constructs screw with this. The blacks end up less educated and less powerful when it comes to the mind overall.

    That doesn't mean blacks are inferior to whites. It means that if you take the intelligence levels of all blacks and compare them to all whites, it'd be less.

    This means nothing. Absolutely nothing.
    The powers delegated by the proposed Constitution to the federal government are few and defined. Those which are to remain in the State governments are numerous and indefinite. The former will be exercised principally on external objects, as war, peace, negotiation, and foreign commerce; with which last the power of taxation will, for the most part, be connected. The powers reserved to the several States will extend to all the objects which, in the ordinary course of affairs, concern the lives, liberties, and properties of the people, and the internal order, improvement, and prosperity of the State. - James Madison

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    Zodiac's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: DNA Discoverer: Blacks Less Intelligent Than Whites

    We all know that, but why whould anyone publish something like this If they knew there were really smart guys like Carver?
    "Why do I keep coming back here again?" ~ Zodiac

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    William the Bastard's Avatar Invictus Maneo
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    Default Re: DNA Discoverer: Blacks Less Intelligent Than Whites

    Hmmmm a very dodgy topic but to be honest I am no racist and I can see a few differences between races that must be down to genes. Just look at how Black people can run faster than white people or how you don't see many (if any) black swimmers in the Olympics. It is very easy for idiots to jump on these claims and say "That's Racist" using what imo is perhaps a more racially offensive gif but there are differences between races that should be investigated scientifically. The average human is so indoctrinated to see something like this as anti black that they can't see past it.

    On intelligence, my GP (General Practitioner/Doctor) is a black man and to get where he is must have taken some brains to do so. There will always be many who aren't in the generalisation and there will be some who are. I agree with this sort of testing but I disagree with writing off all black people as unintelligent as doing so proves yourself to be unable to understand the complexities of the study.

  11. #11

    Default Re: DNA Discoverer: Blacks Less Intelligent Than Whites

    Most sociologists, geneticists and psychologists reject the notion of racial differences in intelligence, pointing out that economic and social factors clearly influence IQ test scores.
    That is pretty much the truth to this whole "idea".

    Plus not all black nations are having massive problems, going on that assumption is a mistake from the state. Sure most are 3rd world and poor, but then look at Asia and South America. Or is it only Europe and America North of the Rio Grande the only places that contain intelligent people?
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  12. #12
    Juvenal's Avatar love your noggin
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    Default Re: DNA Discoverer: Blacks Less Intelligent Than Whites

    I think we are the victims of simplification with this topic.

    First problem: what is Black? it isn't a good way of categorising people, there is a temptation to adjust the boundaries to fit whatever theory you are trying to prove. A good example in the Madeleine McCann story is the recent photo of a "black" Morrocan carrying a blond child, which was immediately taken to be indicative of foul play - the assumption being there is a clear distinction between "black" and "white" people.

    Second problem: what is intelligence? IQ is just a measurement of success at solving puzzles. IQ results are influenced by familiarity with the types of questions being asked - there is generally a west European cultural bias that is very difficult to remove. Also, IQ scores improve with practice!!!

    Third problem: how can you eliminate the effect of upbringing and culture? Even trying to compare people of Europeans and African ancestry in the same place and same social group, you still have very real differences in how society has affected black and white people. If this wasn't true, we wouldn't find role-reversal stories so interesting.
    Last edited by Juvenal; October 18, 2007 at 04:05 AM.

  13. #13
    Civitate
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    Default Re: DNA Discoverer: Blacks Less Intelligent Than Whites

    Is there a (reliable) source for this? It's FOX news, God only knows how much of it is going to be rubbish.
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    Justice and Mercy's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: DNA Discoverer: Blacks Less Intelligent Than Whites

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaun View Post
    Is there a (reliable) source for this? It's FOX news, God only knows how much of it is going to be rubbish.
    Oh c'mon. FOX news doesn't lie.

    It's biased, but it doesn't lie. Not unless the government is lying, in which case FOX has no reliable sources.

    It would be foolish to lie about one of Britain's most eminent scientist's study and conclusion.
    The powers delegated by the proposed Constitution to the federal government are few and defined. Those which are to remain in the State governments are numerous and indefinite. The former will be exercised principally on external objects, as war, peace, negotiation, and foreign commerce; with which last the power of taxation will, for the most part, be connected. The powers reserved to the several States will extend to all the objects which, in the ordinary course of affairs, concern the lives, liberties, and properties of the people, and the internal order, improvement, and prosperity of the State. - James Madison

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    Trax's Avatar It's a conspiracy!
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    Default Re: DNA Discoverer: Blacks Less Intelligent Than Whites

    Just look at how Black people can run faster than white people or how you don't see many
    Not just black people, but more specifically people from West Africa or of West African decent - just look at most of the sprinters.

    A good example in the Madeleine McCann story is the recent photo of a "black" Morrocan carrying a blond child, which was immediately taken to be indicative of foul play
    I'm sorry but the North Africans and even more so the berbers are in no way black and I doubt anyone could claim this. The problem was that the blonde child didn't look Arab, but most people don't realise that very large amount of Moroccans are berbers.
    Last edited by Trax; October 18, 2007 at 08:33 AM.

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    rathelios's Avatar Miles
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    Default Re: DNA Discoverer: Blacks Less Intelligent Than Whites

    Watson is a very clever man but I really don't know what he was thinking when he said this. Perhaps just illustrating my next point about IQ meaning exactly nothing.
    The theory of g or general intelligence factor is not without its critics. There are many aspects to intellectual ability: verbal or numerical intelligence, practical intelligence, social competence abilities to name a few. The basic premise of g is that these are all interrelated and thus measuring one measures them all. This does not seem as true now as it did in 1904. No single 'intelligence gene' has ever been found. Some people are good with numbers some people can spot a liar a mile away. These are both examples of different kinds of intelligence found in different amounts in different people. How much of them is heritable and how much learned?

    Race is more obviously a social construct. Humans seem programmed to categorise objects in general and other people in particular. There are good subconscious reasons for doing this, mostly that it makes life easier, but it can sometimes muddy the waters. Does it make sense to define different races of sheep, chimpanzees, moths or caterpillars based on colour differences? Probably not. Yet the genetic differences between these individuals is often more than the differences within the entire human population on Earth. Are dark faced sheep more intelligent than white faced sheep? Who would seriously want to know or expect a useful answer?


    Quote Originally Posted by Pal, S., Shyam, R., & Singh, R.
    Less than 1% of human DNA varies globally, in the 3 billion nucleotide positions in the human genome; however, that 1% creates a large number of potential differences between any two people. Some regional differences are observable, and others less so. For example, one will see larger proportions of blond hair and blue eyes in people born in European countries than in those born in Asian ones. In addition, one will see shorter people, on average, among those born in Asia than among those born in Europe, and one will see wider noses in West Africa, on average, than in East Africa. In other words, within geographic groups, there is variation, and, as it turns out, tremendous variation.
    .........................
    There is nothing special about skin color that serves as a basis for differentiating humans into so-called races. Any two groups of people that differ in one way are likely to differ in a cluster of ways. For example, as noted by Marks (2002), geneticists have found that 54% of people who have designated themselves as Hebrew priests, many of whom have the surname of Cohen, have a certain pattern of two genes on the Y chromosome. In contrast, only 33% of Jews who do not view themselves as priests exhibit this pattern. What conclusion is to be drawn? Well, the correct conclusion is that different groups of people will differ in various respects. The authors of the study concluded that one could infer a genetic Jewish priestly line dating back to the biblical Aaron (Skorecki et al., 1997). Other bases for differentiation could be chosen as well, including the afore- mentioned one of girth.
    Pal, S., Shyam, R., & Singh, R. (1997) Intelligence, Race and genetics
    Last edited by rathelios; October 18, 2007 at 10:10 AM.

  17. #17

    Default Re: DNA Discoverer: Blacks Less Intelligent Than Whites

    Quote Originally Posted by catinwasher View Post
    ...The theory of g or general intelligence factor is not without its critics. There are many aspects to intellectual ability: verbal or numerical intelligence, practical intelligence, social competence abilities to name a few. The basic premise of g is that these are all interrelated and thus measuring one measures them all.
    That is not what it says at all. g(in this case Spearman(sp?)'s g) is a statistical quantity. For instance consider SAT. A person's verbal and quantitative score are statistically positively correlated. But one score does not tell everything about the other. If someone got 800 in verbal he probably got a good score in math too but a verbal score cannot predict a quantitative score exactly.

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    rathelios's Avatar Miles
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    Default Re: DNA Discoverer: Blacks Less Intelligent Than Whites

    Quote Originally Posted by chilon View Post
    Except that "theories of G" have no real cognitive basis, no supporting evidence from neuroscience.
    And most of us probably know people where it is obvious that intelligence in one area does not at all relate to intelligence in other areas (the math/comp sci prodigy who is socially inept for example).
    Yup. That's exactly what I said too. Well paraphrased. It's almost as though you read and understood the rest of what I wrote.

  19. #19

    Default Re: DNA Discoverer: Blacks Less Intelligent Than Whites

    OK, I'm sortof convinced - lets pool people with very clear genetic differences together in distinct races. Take living at great heights, like miles above sealevel. Those guys are genetically different, no doubt about it. We get sick at those heights and cannot even have babies safely. They can.

    That's a big difference, all scientifically above board. Just not sure how I'm going to fit the Tibetans in with Bolivians and Peruvians in my new system, but I'll get there. They both share that 'high altitude' set of genes, the outward differences must be misleading.

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    Bwaho's Avatar Puppeteer
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    Default Re: DNA Discoverer: Blacks Less Intelligent Than Whites

    There are indeed racial differences. Intelligence being the most controversial topic... so controversial that I'm not even going to say a word

    Not just black people, but more specifically people from West Africa or of West African decent - just look at most of the sprinters.
    I thought it was east africa... you know kenya and all that

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