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    Default What if you didnt have a right to your opinion?

    “Too often we... enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought.”
    ~John F. Kennedy"


    Would you believe me if I said you didn’t have a right to your opinion? If you’re like most people, you’re convinced you’re entitled to your opinion. And that your opinion, whatever it may be, has just as much truth as any opposing one. Never mind evidence and facts, who needs those? After all, you’re just expressing your opinion. I’ll bet you even demand respect for your opinions, no matter how groundless they may be. Well, It’s this articles duty to show you don’t’ have a “right” to your opinion.

    It’s a common mistake for people to think they have this right. If you’re in that group, you couldn’t be further from the truth. Hearing someone utter you don’t have a right to your opinion sounds blatantly false; but it’s not. Let me illustrate:

    Hansel: “Have you seen the movie Sicko?” “It’s great! Michael Moore is really helping the American people.”

    Gretel: “Yeah I’ve seen it, and I don’t think it’s a good documentary at all. Michael Moore is hurting the people by blasting his dogmatic views as truth. If he wanted to help he should’ve at least offered a few valid arguments from the other side.

    Hansel: I don’t know what you mean? In my opinion, he’s doing great things!

    Gretel: You don’t know what I mean? The guy never showed an alternative standpoint! Not to mention shamelessly plugging how generous he is by helping one of his critics pay his medical bills!

    Hansel: “Well, it doesn’t matter; I’m entitled to my opinion.

    That’s a simplified script of how these discussions usually go. Evoking ones rights ends the conversation unresolved. Here’s the problem: Hansel changes the debate from Michael Moore being good for the people, to nonrelated discussion about his rights. This is a red herring and has nothing to do with the original discussion. Usually people who are guilty of this fallacy use it as if it’s a refutation to the opposing standpoint; but it isn’t. It’s fallacious and adds nothing to the discussion. It neither settles the dispute nor shows the opinion in question to be true. It never shows who’s right or advances the stasis.

    If Hansel does, in fact, have a right to claim his view as truth, Gretel does too. Since the law of contradiction doesn’t allow both standpoints to be true, it leads to a direct violation of one of their rights.

    This so called right is violated all the time. In order to prevent their “right” from being violated, we would need to go back and settle the original dispute; Hansel and Gretel need to discover who has the truth.

    When someone digresses to a discussion about their rights, they’ve tried to lead us to an entirely different discussion. Gretel never said Hansel didn’t have this right. Hansel might as well have brought up the price of rice in China.

    When people say “I’m entitled to my opinion”, it’s often because they are unable to defend their standpoint and want to retire to their familiar, delusional lives. And for less serious matters, by all means; let them.

    Many people hold their mistaken beliefs because it’s familiar or brings comfort. But that, of course, doesn’t make them right.

    We’re only entitled to our opinions if we have evidence for those beliefs. Strong arguments must support a belief along with the inferences supported by proper warrants. If you are going to have a discussion, you should be willing to change your mind in the presence of irrefutable evidence, or at least be willing to question your own beliefs.

    You shouldn’t lock up and run when someone doesn’t hold your view. For example, I know books like the bible teach Christians to flee from heathens, but if you run from people who have different views; how you do think critically and get to the truth? Why would you accept that rhetorical poison? It’s only there to keep you from thinking. It’s kind of like having a good old fashioned book burning. Do you flee because you have faith in “the word”? If that’s the case, I must mention; faith is when someone else does the thinking. But if you prefer living by the saying “ignorance is bliss” I’m sure you don’t mind others doing the thinking for you.

    When someone says they have a right to X, we should immediately ask, what does this claimed right impose on others. Having a “right” to continue living means everyone else has a duty not to murder you. But does the right also mean society has the duty of feeding you and putting a roof over your head? Asking ourselves what duties the right imposes on others helps us decide if such a right is possible. Do I have a duty to listen to your mistaken opinion? Do I have a duty to let you keep it? No. If someone were to hold the belief that driving home drunk will be ok since they've been driving for years is mistaken, and it's my duty to change his or her opinion.

    Having a right to our own opinion creates duties. And if our opinions contradict, how can we possibly fulfill our duty to each other?

    Political correctness in the U.S. demands that everyone respects your opinions, and it’s looked down on to disagree with people. Even if you disagree you’re usually expected to stay silent and avoid arguing. Being a thinking person requires repudiation to what isn’t knowable and reliable. Not accepting for fact, what people say at prima facie and being cautious of nonsynthetic personal experience; which is usually unreliable. People have many personal claims, and most I come across are not verifiable.

    I imagine many Americans haven’t given serious thought to critical thinking. And I base that on what I hear in the personal and public spheres. These people haven’t come across the liberal arts or they refuse to study them.

    People go through life thinking their views are sacred. In America people would have you run a fool’s errand before hurting someones feelings. I think the lack of thinking (among others) ties into being taught what to think and not how to think.

    In the schools I attended, they didn’t bother to teach logic, reason, critical thinking, rhetoric or argumentation. Many Americans are forced to discover the liberal arts on their own with no help from the education system.

    I’m not sure why that is, but it might suggest a cause for many of the problems we face in America. How can our republic work without the people having these skills? It’s obvious to me why our founders created a republic rather than a true democracy.

    The problem with a democracy is that the majority can seemingly be convinced of anything an adept rhetoritician puts forward. Is it our governments fault? Well, regardless if it is or isn’t; the stigma stands.

    Studying logic and reason will help us achieve a better life and improve our decision making ability. It will prevent us and our family from being taken advantage of and being deceived by con artists. Using logic and reason will make us better thinkers. We’ll see right through charlatans and their arguments and harmful rhetoric. We’ll no longer do the blind Kool-Aid taste tests but instead ask; “Should I *really* just shut up and drink my Kool-Aid or should I go ahead and try some on the cat first.

    ---------


    “He that cannot reason is a fool. He that will not is a bigot. He that dare not is a slave.~Andrew Carnegie"


    “Begin challenging your own assumptions. Your assumptions are your windows on the world. Scrub them off every once in awhile, or the light won't come in.” ~Alan Alda"


    “When dealing with people, remember you are not dealing with creatures of logic, but with creatures of emotion, creatures bristling with prejudice, and motivated by pride and vanity”"

    “Logic hasn't wholly dispelled the society of witches and prophets and sorcerers and soothsayers. ~Raymond F. Jones, The Non-Statistical Man"

    “He that cannot reason is a fool. He that will not is a bigot. He that dare not is a slave.~Andrew Carnegie"

    “He is a true fugitive who flies from reason. ~Marcus Aurelius"

    “A wise man is not governed by others, nor does he try to govern them; he prefers that reason alone prevail. ~La Bruyère, Characters, 1688"

    “No problem can withstand the assault of sustained thinking. ~Voltaire"

    “Reading without reflecting is like eating without digesting. ~Edmund Burke"

    “You and I are not what we eat; we are what we think. ~Walter Anderson, The Confidence Course, 1997"

    “Did you ever stop to think, and forget to start again? ~Winnie the Pooh"

    “Too often we... enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought. ~John F. Kennedy"

    “Begin challenging your own assumptions. Your assumptions are your windows on the world. Scrub them off every once in awhile, or the light won't come in. ~Alan Alda"

    “Thinking is like loving and dying. Each of us must do it for himself. ~Josiah Royce"

  2. #2
    Kiljan Arslan's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: What if you didnt have a right to your opinion?

    I'd set up a base underground, become an expert in explosives, wear a cape, and a black suit, and finnally wear a Guy Fawks mask.
    according to exarch I am like
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Quote Originally Posted by Exarch View Post
    sure, the way fred phelps finds christianity too optimistic?

    Simple truths
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Did you know being born into wealth or marrying into wealth really shows you never did anything to earn it?
    btw having a sig telling people not to report you is hilarious.

  3. #3
    Rex Armeniae's Avatar King of Kings
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    Default Re: What if you didnt have a right to your opinion?

    What if you didnt have a right to your opinion?
    I would do my best to fight for it.
    Հայաստան: Իմ սիրելի Հայաստան:
    The more you sweat in training, the less you bleed in battle.
    - Under the patronage of another Rex Armeniae Drtad | Տրտադ

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    Default Re: What if you didnt have a right to your opinion?

    Quote Originally Posted by 4p3x View Post
    if I said you didn’t have a right to your opinion
    I would say that that was merely your opinion, and you have no right for it. Mine is obviously more important

  5. #5

    Default Re: What if you didnt have a right to your opinion?

    if I said you didn’t have a right to your opinion
    Then I can think silently

  6. #6

    Default Re: What if you didnt have a right to your opinion?

    It is fine letting people have their own opinions, as long as they are utterly impotent to do anything about them.
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    Default Re: What if you didnt have a right to your opinion?

    Doubly so in certain cases (that disagree with my opinion....)

  8. #8

    Default Re: What if you didnt have a right to your opinion?

    Then you would be in High School
    Swear filters are for sites run by immature children.

  9. #9

    Default Re: What if you didnt have a right to your opinion?

    People have a right to their own opinion. It's just that opinions are like butts - everyone has one, but few bare close observation.

    I rather like the one quote about the wise man - that he wouldn't be governed by others or try to govern others, that he would wait for reason to prevail. That's pretty much how things work out...so, the wise woman would not try to enforce feminism on everyone or accept oppression, she would wait for Humanity to treat women more fairly. Change happens over time. Reason takes time. I bet some women during Roman times wanted what some women have now - but they waited, patiently, for reason to prevail (and didn't throw themselves in front of horses or make continual slurs against men, etc, if you know what I mean).

  10. #10
    rathelios's Avatar Miles
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    Default Re: What if you didnt have a right to your opinion?

    4p3x makes a good point. Everyone has a right to hold whatever opinion they like in their head. When they start spouting 'I have a right to my opinion' as a defence for ill thought out and/or totally unacceptable opinions then they have a big heap of wrong coming to 'em.
    One of the crimes of political correctness was/is allegedly making all opinions equally valid. This is not so. (I say allegedly because in practice certain opinions are more anathema not less.) An easily refutable opinion is not equal to all other opinions. Anyone who reads these forums can see proof of this in action on a regular basis.
    Well that's my opinion!

  11. #11

    Default Re: What if you didnt have a right to your opinion?

    But who decides if an opinion is unacceptable? I hold the opinion that the animal welfare cops going around stopping people from mistreating their animals is right, but what if someone opposes me, and believes they shouldn't be stopped from beating on their pets, etc?

    Now, I could simply say the opposing opinion to mine is unacceptable...but then, that'd be as illogical as saying that I have a right to my own opinion if we use 4p3x's logic. WHY is it unacceptable? This is why people have debates, because they see an opinion is unacceptable, and they say WHY. You can't just say something is unacceptable and leave it at that.

    Everyone, therefore, is entitled to an opinion - and to state that opinion, but they must back it up. This kind of makes our entire debate solved. Back up what you say - or don't say it at all. To state someone's opinion is simply unacceptable is to say," I think I am right, that you are wrong, and therefore to debate is meaningless because, like I said, I am right. It'd be pointless to debate an issue on which I feel I am right and that I feel you are wrong. Come back to me when you agree I am right."

    Besides, any opinion is 'refutable' from the other side. Or many are, anyway. I bet there are a bunch of people out there (and in those animal rights topics here at TWC one has posted...can't remember who) who can 'easily refute' the idea that it's wrong to beat pets. I'm not going into an animal rights debate by any means, just trying to illustrate my point, but take taming horses...it can be done very easily with peaceful, non-violent methods - yet some people could 'easily refute' in THEIR opinion that it's far better to do it violently, for whatever reasons they have. And this takes me to my main point - it's all relative. This is why we have debates - any argument is refutable somehow.

    So, basically, who is wrong or right is down to a debate. You can't simply say in short that some people have to be silenced because they have easily refutable opinions - they could say the same about us. I could ask why am I even posting here if I feel you are wrong? Because, I must provide a reason. I bet we'll go down many lines of reasoning before this debate is finally solved - because points in both our arguments are refutable.

    PS: No animal rights debates, please - I was just trying to illustrate my main argument. That is that everyone has an opinion, and they all have the opinion that the other side's arguments can be easily refuted. This is why we have debates. We can never, and must never, simply state that the other side's arguments are wrong or refutable. There is a strong emphasis on the WHY. Is the main idea of this topic to suggest that you don't have debates with those you feel are wrong? Is it to suggest that it's pointless to argue with those who's ideas are refutable? Like I said, that's the point of a debate...to debate. It's not black and white.

    PSS: I might not be able to participate too much in this debate at the moment...my net connection is playing up a lot.

    PSSS: I ramble a lot at times, so I'm not entirely certain how much of my argument even relates to the main debate, or if I'm even making sense...
    Last edited by Kaidonni; October 13, 2007 at 07:04 AM.

  12. #12
    rathelios's Avatar Miles
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    Default Re: What if you didnt have a right to your opinion?

    Maybe I didn't explain that very well the last time. I'll have another go.
    In free societies we have a right to hold any opinion we please. This goes for everyone else too. Some people take this to mean that their opinions are therefore sacrosanct and merely stating that something 'is your opinion' makes it beyond contradiction. This is not the case. You may hold any opinions you please but using the fact that they are your opinions as a defence of those same opinions is just plain wrong.
    I think this is more what 4p3x means rather than outlawing holding opinions per se. He, she, it can correct me if 'tis otherwise.

  13. #13

    Default Re: What if you didnt have a right to your opinion?

    Well, that's fine. People need to realise their opinion will always come under scrutiny, and therefore must be prepared to back it up. Just because it's an opinion doesn't mean a damn thing - I could say that, in my opinion, the sky is blue. I'd have to back it up, and as long as I'm stating it, it is fair to say it can come under scrutiny. Why, the sky could be teal instead, or white to cyan to sea blue.

    Like I said, I might have rambled on and made no sense before. As it stands now, I'd agree that this topic might be implying that if you state your opinion, you better well be prepared to back it up, and you can't use any opt-outs, such as the idea you have a right to that opinion. It is kind of PC, I agree. An opinion is only worth as much as the argument used to back it up, and the idea we all have a right to an opinion is a cop-out.

    Yes, we do all have a right to an opinion - both in our head and out aloud - but we have the responsibility to back ourselves up while at it. I'd definitely agree people try opt-outs such as we have this right or that right. It's like with freedom of speech...people say something very, very offensive to a group of people, and even preach hate, then claim they have a right to free speech - er, they also have the responsibility to use that right properly. Just as we do with our right to an opinion. With great power comes great responsibility. People just go for 'It's my right' because they think they can do whatever they want.

    If someone didn't want to debate something, that's fine, they should really just say. I keep out of animal rights/welfare debates in forums. But I agree that it's bad to use 'I have a right to an opinion' as an argument. It comes up all too often because people don't want to lose an argument. And to echo the fact I keep out of most animal rights/welfare debates, yes, I have my opinions, and I will state them when I wish - but at least I realise I must back myself up or keep out of it. Not to try to go off-topic, just illustrating my point.

    I hope I made sense...lol...I have a habit of rambling.
    Last edited by Kaidonni; October 13, 2007 at 02:15 PM.

  14. #14

    Default Re: What if you didnt have a right to your opinion?

    unless you are right wing you don't have a right to your opinions on these boards.
    Hammer & Sickle - Karacharovo

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  15. #15
    El Brujo's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: What if you didnt have a right to your opinion?

    unless you are right wing you don't have a right to your opinions on these boards.
    The right wingers have a right to criticize an opinion just as anyone else has a right to state/criticize an opinion. If you say something on a debate forum, be prepared to defend your statement.

  16. #16

    Default Re: What if you didnt have a right to your opinion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Modern Life is Rubbish View Post
    unless you are right wing you don't have a right to your opinions on these boards.
    or an atheist in the religous forum. If your not everyone dumps crap on you.
    "I have need to be all on fire, for I have mountains of ice about me to melt." -William Lloyd Garrison

    "The end may justify the means as long as there is something that justifies the end." -Leon Trotsky

  17. #17

    Default Re: What if you didnt have a right to your opinion?

    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    or an atheist in the religous forum. If your not everyone dumps crap on you.
    which is why i never go there. its mainly religious dogma or philosophy without any application in the real world.
    Hammer & Sickle - Karacharovo

    And I drank it strait down.

  18. #18

    Default Re: What if you didnt have a right to your opinion?

    For me, there are two criteria which one needs to meet before expressing one's opinions.

    1. You need to have actually done the work i.e you need to have at least a rough idea of what the hell you're talking about.

    2. You need to honestly believe that, in expressing your opinion, you are going to be doing more good than harm.

  19. #19
    mocker's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: What if you didnt have a right to your opinion?

    Nowadays, people can't present their argument without resorting to quoting more-important-than-thou historical guys en masse...


  20. #20

    Default Re: What if you didnt have a right to your opinion?

    Here's my question: Does it really matter if your opinion on something is necessarily founded on facts rather than fabrications? Keep in mind that throughout history, masses have been led to cause catastrophic change and they never questioned the validity of whether, deep inside, what they were doing was right or not. They were driven by opinions that were both right and wrong.

    Another viewpoint on this is that you need to know at least SOMETHING about what you're talking about in order to have a valid opinion. At the same time though, you don't need to have a Phd either. One old professor will have one opinion but the opinion that will matter, the one that will change history and shape the present will probably be one of a politician with lesser qualifications.
    Death be not proud, though some have called thee
    Mighty and dreadful, for, thou art not so.

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