Battles of "Bellum Gallicum"

**Gatto** · October 12, 2007, 04:53 AM

"Gallia divisa est in partes tres..." when there were classworks about Caesar's works what I had always dreamt about is to recreate such events in something like... the RTW engine! So what I have to say... great thanks and congratulations to the team members!

Unlike other great mods this is centered on specific historical events so
large field battles will have enormous importance. How to make these more realistic? I would like to propose some suggestions.

Firstly unit movement and turning rate should be slower expecially for cavalry, that can move from on side to the other of an army in no time
and can charge when facing in a different direction. (I tried to edit the terrain modifiers but have no idea of what the comparative values should be)

Secondly unit stats should be revised. Hand missile effectiveness is way too high, particularly when legionaires throw pila at barbarian units. Pila attack should be reduced at least by one third, instead it should have a greater shocking effect on morale and be AP, since real effects of the pila can't be
implemented. Also arrows and slinged stones effectiveness should be lightly reduced. Generally speaking attack values should be reduced in comparison to defence as already is for Roman legionaries who in RTR are too superior to other units even similarly equipped like the hiberian scutarii. An accurate sistem considering training, weapons armor and shield quality, "warrior istinct" would be welcomed.

On the other hand legionaries and gaesatae should be in the few having a "good morale" in RTR (corresponding to more than a excellent morale in real history). Other units morale should be lowered, even to "poor" for troops like Greek Pantodapoi (irregulars); they actually rout too hardly even when attacked from the flanks and never for missile attack even if they suffered tremendous casualties. Also troops experience was important in Caesar's campaign; it should be gained much more easily (a cohort suffering 20% casualties and inflicting 120% is more often than not still "green" at the end of the battle).

All this should make an emphasis of tactics like flanking, correct cavalry charge timing and deployment of reserves.

And of course you will need the best modded AI availlable for beating Vercingetorix and Pompeus will not be easy

.

Are these changes possible and auspicable? Thanks in advance for any reply.

**bucellarii** · October 13, 2007, 03:21 AM

First of all thank you very much for your interest in 58 BC:IMPERATOR. The team hope you won't be disappointed with the final release.

The team has of course discussed the role of cavalry in the Mod. However the difficulty of depicting the supporting role of cavalry as practised under Roman military docrine is that any reduction in their battlefied effectiveness raises additional questions about how best to portray the legionary infantry.

The combat effectiveness and unit cohesion of Caesar's legions enabled the Romans to achieve a series of stunning victories in Gaul. However the team want to make life tough for the player and therefore we don't want to end up with super strength legions that enable the player to overrun Gallia Comata through a series of easy victories.

This brings me on to your point about unit stats as whole. Most of the Mod's focus has been on some very clever strategic scripting that is aimed at capturing the events of the Bellum Gallicum and the Bellum Civile. Beta testing suggests the team has been pretty successful in this area. However major tweaking of combat stats is not something that has been undertaken. Your point about reducing hand misile effectiveness is well made and is something the team might still introduce.

Wholescale change though would require extensive testing and Salvor is too hard pressed to undertake this without some significant assistance.

For example I agree with you that morale is not particularly well depicted in RTW Mods. This is because by trying avoid the instant routs that plagued vanilla RTW morale levels were generally increased across the board in most subsequent Mods.

I am no military historian but it seems the general consensus is that most casualties in ancient warfare were sustained when one side or the other broke and exposed their rear during flight. Combat casualties during the main action were relatively low by comparison. A Mod that could slow down casualty rates, avoid instant routs but still portary the cumulative breakdown in morale (particularly in Celtic armies when the initial shock charge fails to win the day) that led to the lion's share of ancient battlefield casualties would be on to something.

I am unaware though that any Mod has actually achieved this balance. Therefore if have you got any specific stat changes you would like to see included in 58 BC: IMPERATOR that might radically change the tempo of RTW battles please let the team know. We might even invite you to test them for us!

**Gatto** · October 13, 2007, 04:50 AM

Are the unit stats and terrain modificators definitive or still work in progress in 58BC? I would be really pleased in betatesting your mod, eventually changing something and seeing what happens.

Generally speaking in my opinion a longer lenght of battles could be achieved not by raising all units morale but by notably reducing attack values in comparison to defence. Also unarmored warriors (like most Celts and skirmishers) should not be given any armor points but only shield, it would make more important to target them from flanks or rear I think:hmmm:... I have no clear idea if this is represented in RTW engine. About Celts behavior in combat why not giving them higher attack, defence ability and expecially charge values with the same weapons but also a "low resistance" to fatigue? It should affect even morale that from impetuos should easily drop to wavering. A still linear but more "disordered" formation and an enhanced tendency to charge whitout orders would be realistic for them.

Cheers

**bucellarii** · October 13, 2007, 12:37 PM

Are the unit stats and terrain modificators definitive or still work in progress in 58BC? I would be really pleased in betatesting your mod, eventually changing something and seeing what happens.

Nothing is set in stone

Current Beta Testing is concentrating on making sure the scripts and associated historical missions play out in a challenging and realistic manner.

I like a lot of what you say and will let Salvor and Empedocles know you are interested in helping us refine the tactical side of the Mod.

Combat modification is earmarked for the FRRE Marius-Sulla Campaign but if we can get get something sorted out for 58 BC: IMPERATOR then so much the better.

The Team will be in touch over the next day or two

**DaVinci** · October 14, 2007, 05:18 PM

Generally speaking in my opinion a longer lenght of battles could be achieved not by raising all units morale but by notably reducing attack values in comparison to defence. Also unarmored warriors (like most Celts and skirmishers) should not be given any armor points but only shield, it would make more important to target them from flanks or rear I think... I have no clear idea if this is represented in RTW engine. About Celts behavior in combat why not giving them higher attack, defence ability and expecially charge values with the same weapons but also a "low resistance" to fatigue? It should affect even morale that from impetuos should easily drop to wavering. A still linear but more "disordered" formation and an enhanced tendency to charge whitout orders would be realistic for them.

You are definitely on the right way here for the new FRRE mods

... while the moral for some celtic or especially germanic warriors shouldn't be too easy breakable, as ie. germanic warriors had pretty much no fear in battles to look the death into the eyes, until the situation is hopeless and their tactics failed completely.