Another argument against the American gun 'culture'...

[morteduzionism]

It's because of these examples why I can't understand how/why people think guns are helpful.

Although we'll never know I'm willing to bet that there was at least one other firearm in that residence. A rural area like that where outdoor activities, in other words: hunting, is the main form of recreation. That's why I'm betting there were other guns in that house, and they didn't help these six people at all. But that's my opinion.

My main point is that people can't be trusted! We can't trust those people who argue that there is a responsible way to handle guns. Why can't we trust them? Because they're people and they can have just as many, or more, screwy things in their head as the next crazy person. The only difference is: they're armed.

Here are some quotes from the above story that, I feel, support my point:

An off-duty sheriff's deputy who killed six young people fired 30 rounds of ammunition after he burst into a home where friends had gathered

Didn't the Va Tech guy loose 30 rounds also? Not that that matters but it is weird.

The fact that this was a sheriffs deputy suggests that NOONE can be trusted with guns unless there is a war going on and you can point them in the general direction of the enemy and let them have at it.

Also, he "burst" into the house. Even if you were sitting right across from the door with a loaded gun in your lap, if someone just "bursts" into your house is your first instinctual reaction to grab the gun and start shooting? If it is, you're living a very dangerous lifestyle and that's a completely different conversation.

Tyler Peterson...had been in a relationship with one of the victims

What the (bleep) type of sense does it make to allow emotionally unstable people the "right" to be armed? I mean, if one can't even handle a break-up what makes anyone think (s)he can be trusted with a lethal weapon? Hell, the astronaut lady was a stalker! A (bleep)ing astronaut!!! Outside with diapers...and we(US) allow any John Dumbdumb to buy a weapon! Like I said too many crazy people out there.

The rampage raised questions in the remote northern Wisconsin community about how Peterson could have met requirements to become a law enforcement officer.

As if he wouldn't have done it as a private citizen.

but he had undergone other background checks and completed all required training by the state, authorities said.

These probably would be more stringent than a private citizens...I'm assuming. I wouldn't be surprised if they weren't the same exact system of checks that a regular citizen would undergoe.

We had no idea, obviously, that anything like this would ever occur

My point also! You just never know what's going on in someone elses head. So what sense does it make to give them a deadly weapon?

The rifle used in the shootings is the type used by the sheriff's department

There goes the 'we can have hunting rifles' argument right out the window.

Now my two favorites:

Once we realized that he was our suspect, he was no longer a cop.

and

This was not the Tyler we knew and loved.

Yes it was! It's funny how people forget who you are when you do something bad...lol

But seriously, this once again is why I say you can't trust people. You simply never know what demons someone has.

Pro-gun people are nuts! They (bleep) and moan about we need to protect ourselves from the government while all the while it's their next door neighbors, their friends and ex-lovers who are steadily killing them. What does it say about them when they can't/won't even recognize the true danger to them? What it says to me is that anyone so delusional to not see the real danger who instead obsesses over some imagined hypothetical threat is too damned crazy-in-the-head to be allowed to reproduce...let alone own a firearm.

[Sher Khan]

Honestly?

I would rather have my neighbor pull out a gun and end me in a hail of bullets.

Getting stabbed by your neighbor is so last millenium.

[Bokks]

The second amendment to the American constitution (the one that protects gun ownership) is one of the ten "natural" or "human" rights that the constitution imperically recognizes we have simply by being born human. A natural right is a right that is neither government granted nor, therefore, may it be government rescinded.
In other words, we all have the right. It can't be taken away. So instead of saying that no-one should own one, let's work to educate everyone enough so we're comfortable with them having a gun.

[christof139]

Some people should not be allowed to own firearms, criminals and psychos in the main.

Chris

[Richard]

Chris, I'm sure that would be a start, but guns would still be so prevalent I doubt that would make it much more difficult for a determine criminal to get his hands on some. As for psycho's, that's an interesting point; are people with certain mental conditions/illnesses banned from owning firearms already? (That is not a rhetorical question btw)

[MasterOfNone]

Criminals can get hold of guns easily - this is largely due to the fact that they do not obey the law. They also can get past licensing laws etc. by virtue of the fact that they do not obey the law.

Hence gun laws only take guns away from the people who are most likely to use them responsibly.

If people want to support gun laws then they, I assume would like:

- to not be able to defend their family should their house be broken into by criminals
- to not be able to defend their country should the shores be invaded
- to allow only criminals and government access to guns and to be at the mercy of both
- to have no power to overthrow their government should it act tyrannically
- to have little power to so easily hunt and gain food should a point come when the suppy lines of your country fail for whatever reason

[Ummagumma]

Sorry to drag up an old post, but...

Criminals can get hold of guns easily - this is largely due to the fact that they do not obey the law. They also can get past licensing laws etc. by virtue of the fact that they do not obey the law.

Hence gun laws only take guns away from the people who are most likely to use them responsibly.

If people want to support gun laws then they, I assume would like:

- to not be able to defend their family should their house be broken into by criminals
- to not be able to defend their country should the shores be invaded
- to allow only criminals and government access to guns and to be at the mercy of both
- to have no power to overthrow their government should it act tyrannically
- to have little power to so easily hunt and gain food should a point come when the suppy lines of your country fail for whatever reason

1. So, do you have guns on every surface, in every drawer and on your person constantly in case an armed robber decides he wants your TV set, or do you just pre-arrange a time so you can have your gun at hand?

2. There is really nothing to say in response to that. Except some half-hearted chuckling noises.

3. Erm, criminals get guns anyway and why are you afraid of your own army (though I know some British squaddies that are quite afraid of the USAF..)

4. See 2. If you think an armed revolution is possible, or even necessary, you need to do some more thinking.

5. Erm, See 2. Do you have a constitutional obligation to own and maintain a vegetable garden for such circumstances too?

To rephrase your points in the only way that makes sense:

- I'm scared
- I'm scared
- I'm scared
- I'm scared
- I'm scared

Surely people with so much fear should be the last people to be entrusted with all to efficient tools of death.
Oh well. YeeHaw! I got a gun! come try an take it off me... come on! *Bang*. It's my toy an I'm a gonna keep it! YeeHaw!

[El Brujo]

If you don't like guns, you're not required to have any. Just leave my guns alone okay?

[MasterOfNone]

1. So, do you have guns on every surface, in every drawer and on your person constantly in case an armed robber decides he wants your TV set, or do you just pre-arrange a time so you can have your gun at hand?

I think that is why "bear" is included in the phrase

2. There is really nothing to say in response to that. Except some half-hearted chuckling noises.

Not a student of history then....?

3. Erm, criminals get guns anyway and why are you afraid of your own army (though I know some British squaddies that are quite afraid of the USAF..)

Nope, definitely has not learned the lessons of history (unlike the Framers)...

4. See 2. If you think an armed revolution is possible, or even necessary, you need to do some more thinking.

Revolutions are no longer possible? How's that?

5. Erm, See 2. Do you have a constitutional obligation to own and maintain a vegetable garden for such circumstances too?

I see it as a right to raise a vegetable garden on my porperty if I see fit, and think it will benefit me under times of hardship, yes. I am free to do this and should be free to own weapons too.

To rephrase your points in the only way that makes sense:

- I'm scared
- I'm scared
- I'm scared
- I'm scared
- I'm scared

I would have used the word vigilant or aware; but as you are clearly neither, perhaps you cannot comprehend what many in this world have died for...

[Shaun]

If people want to support gun laws then they, I assume would like:

- to not be able to defend their family should their house be broken into by criminals
- to not be able to defend their country should the shores be invaded
- to allow only criminals and government access to guns and to be at the mercy of both
- to have no power to overthrow their government should it act tyrannically
- to have little power to so easily hunt and gain food should a point come when the suppy lines of your country fail for whatever reason

And again the assumption that we must either have a total ban or no gun laws raises its ugly head. Again. I support the private ownership of guns. However, I am not an idiot, therefore I also support restrictions on who can get guns, as well as some basic training so the operator knows how to operate the gun. Under 18's should not be allowed to buy guns, neither should people with certain criminal convictions, or mentally handicapped people (like the Krazy Korean who blasted 30+ innocents recently. It was a product of stupidly lax laws from the type of people who must obviously see any legislation on guns as a bad thing as it contradicts 'freedom' ... but what about the people who got filled with lead - what about their freedom of life?).
I would also like to point out that most of your reasons are pure romantic: it's almost impossible for the British government to a)turn tyrannical b) get invaded (plus, the army will do the defending, not the civilian. They will get drafted if needed ) or c) collapse and Britain turn into chaos and anarchy.

[MasterOfNone]

a)turn tyrannical b) get invaded (plus, the army will do the defending, not the civilian. They will get drafted if needed ) or c) collapse and Britain turn into chaos and anarchy.

I do not know what to say to that. You seem to think modernity immuned to the problems that have historically always afflicted society. Civilizations do not last forever. People are essentially the same today as they were thousands of years ago.

[Shaun]

I do not know what to say to that. You seem to think modernity immuned to the problems that have historically always afflicted society. Civilizations do not last forever. People are essentially the same today as they were thousands of years ago.

Notice the word 'almost'? I still, however, think it's extremely unlikely that Britain will descend into chaos and anarchy within the near future, if at all.

[Chlodwig I.]

Criminals can get hold of guns easily - this is largely due to the fact that they do not obey the law. They also can get past licensing laws etc. by virtue of the fact that they do not obey the law.

Hence gun laws only take guns away from the people who are most likely to use them responsibly.

If people want to support gun laws then they, I assume would like:

- to not be able to defend their family should their house be broken into by criminals
- to not be able to defend their country should the shores be invaded
- to allow only criminals and government access to guns and to be at the mercy of both
- to have no power to overthrow their government should it act tyrannically
- to have little power to so easily hunt and gain food should a point come when the suppy lines of your country fail for whatever reason

Do you mean that serious?

-Defend your Home
In my country criminals break into houses when the owners are not at home, you no noone who could shot at you or call the police in a house makes the robbery safer


- Defend the shores
We don't have that much shores that need to be defended,
but I think if a shore will be invaded then some civilians with hunting rifles and hand guns won't stop the invading Tanks, Assault Bombers and Marines.


-To be at the mercy of Government....
Do you think Policeman and Military would commit crimes against citizens of your country on order of the Government?

Like:

President: General bring in your tanks and shoot these Demonstrants
General: Yes Sir!
General: Okay Soldiers kill these Demonstrants
Soldiers: Yes Sir!

Sounds a bit unrealistic to me.


-To be at the mercy of Criminals
Well in my country there is something thats called "Police"
These are people who work for the City, State or Fed. Gov. thier job is to uphold the law, to defend the citizens against criminals, and to arrest criminals.

But after you are afraid of your Government then you possibly don't trust the police

- REvolution and overthrow Government
Last time I looked every western State was a Democracy so elections are used to overthrow the Government

But
okay lets overthorw it with weapons
there is the problem to overthrow the Government you need to be at least a majority of the population or you will only be considered criminals or terrorist.
And then the Question is what would Police and Military do, would they defend the Country against the Terrorist or would they support the Revolution of the Citizens against the Illegal Government?

- Hunting for food
yeah sure I'm imaging the picture
the people from the urban areas going to the next 7eleven or Wal Mart hunting some spareribs.



The US Americans are allowed to own Guns.
Its thier Country, its thier laws, its thier choice
If its okay for them to have guns, its not my probblem
What the Americans do with thier Guns, Gun Laws etc. is non of my business
and I don't care to be honest
but at least we should stay realistic in a discussion
and not use such arguments like "defend the shores" etc.

By the way
Its a diffrence between owning a gun
and aming at someone and pulling the trigger.

[Maverick]

President: General bring in your tanks and shoot these Demonstrants
General: Yes Sir!
General: Okay Soldiers kill these Demonstrants
Soldiers: Yes Sir!

Sounds a bit unrealistic to me.

This happens every day... and in countries the US does business with.

By the way
Its a diffrence between owning a gun
and aming at someone and pulling the trigger.

Hunting rifles are for hunting. Other firearms are for killing human beings. "The blade itself incites to violence".

yea at what point do we decide that the actions of less than 1% of the population give us the right to tear up the constitution.

That's what we are supposed to do. The founding fathers never intended for the constitution to never be changed, rewritten or discarded. The consitution currently protects people with serious mental problems, even those prone to violence from having any impetus to buying dangerous weapons used for killing people. Especially in a culture completely desensitized to gun violence with lots of crazy people running around we just can't be handing out firearms all willy nilly.

[Farnan]

"The blade itself incites to violence".

********...

I own a rifle, and I've never shot at anyone that I wasn't supposed to (I did shoot at people with blanks during training, but that is different). I have friends that own AR-15s and they never shot anyone. Half my hometown owns a handgun and there are more rifles and shotguns than people, yet the number of gun crimes averages around 0 per year. The last gun crime was done by someone who visited from Philly and used an illegal firearm.

The cause of the gun crime are not firearms, but other deeper causes such as drugs and poverty. Fighting this by removing firearms is like trying to cure brain cancer with advil.

[Gelgoog]

That's what we are supposed to do. The founding fathers never intended for the constitution to never be changed, rewritten or discarded. The consitution currently protects people with serious mental problems, even those prone to violence from having any impetus to buying dangerous weapons used for killing people. Especially in a culture completely desensitized to gun violence with lots of crazy people running around we just can't be handing out firearms all willy nilly.

ok so by that logic because people abuse alcohol we should ban it again? more people are killed by drunk drivers then are they by firearms. the 2nd amendment is an indelible right and an entrenched constitutional right that cannot be changed unless your willing to scrap the whole constitution. since the constitution and bill of rights are there to limit the power of the government, they cannot be taken away by that government either.

[Kiki52]

I wonder why the Swiss are ok with having machine guns for every family, yet the US where we are proud of being a gun owning country, we cannot handle guns without 10,000 gun related murders per year the highest of any industrialized country.

[Gelgoog]

I wonder why the Swiss are ok with having machine guns for every family, yet the US where we are proud of being a gun owning country, we cannot handle guns without 10,000 gun related murders per year the highest of any industrialized country.

um because in switzerland they are all forced to serve in the military, and they are a fairly stable and wealthy country with little ethnic diversity or strife.

[christof139]

If there were stricter controls on manufacturing, imports, and sales of firearms it would make a difference. Yes, psychos and etc. and felons presently are not legally allowed to own guns.

Many guns used to commit crimes in the USA and Canada and Mexico are from foreign manufacturers.

Funny thing, I was raised with firearms, hunted when I was 10-years old etc., and never have committed a crime with a firearm. In states such as Wyoming etc. where you can legally carry an unconcealed firearm on your person crime is much lower, although cattle rustlers and other criminals and people do occasionally get shot, and stabbed etc. too, I may add.

Chris

[christof139]

People that use guns responsibly and are not felons and etc. can easily get firearms.

By 'gun control' I mean stricter laws on sales, background checks, more control on manufacturing and imports, and heavy penalties for supplying firearms to felons and etc. Have to stop the illegal importation of guns, and that would be a big help in taking firearms out of the hands of felons etc.

Chris