Question about the Spartan unit...

[lesterthenerd]

how come they r the same ones from vanilla? and why do they retreat? in all other mods they have the updated spartan skin and they dont retreat... so does any1 know how to update their skin for rtr:p 1.9?

[florin80]

1. they are not the vanilla ones.
2. what is the "updated spartan skin" common to "all other mods"?
3. lol, what do you mean with this:

and why do they retreat?

When do they retreat?

[lesterthenerd]

1 - ill post a screen shot of them in a sec.

2 - well in other mods spartan have oher skins that make them actually look like spartan warriors and then dont have those funny egg like helmets lol.

3 ill post a screen shot for this as well.

http://img221.imageshack.us/my.php?i...rearingyg9.png

see? i thought spartans never surrender O_o

[florin80]

1 - ill post a screen shot of them in a sec.

Ok, post one for the vanilla ones too so we can compare them.

2 - well in other mods spartan have oher skins that make them actually look like spartan warriors and then dont have those funny egg like helmets lol.

That egg like helmet(pylos) is the authentic one for this period. The corinthian(I presume that is the one you`re in love with) is for an earlier time frame.

3 ill post a screen shot for this as well.

Good, it will help me see if you are or not actually talking about a formation issue or the multi hitpoints from edu.

see? i thought spartans never surrender O_o

Historically they did it at least once that i know of. What do you want the poor man to do if they are heavily outnumbered? If you want you can mod the game(simple thing that I can show you how to do) and make them like in 300, but it kinda kills gameplay I think.

[lesterthenerd]

That egg like helmet(pylos) is the authentic one for this period. The corinthian(I presume that is the one you`re in love with) is for an earlier time frame.

lol i see. still they look too funny to be taken seriously...

http://img221.imageshack.us/my.php?i...rearingyg9.png

damm it looks too small =/

it looked bigger on paint...

ok look at this - http://img74.imageshack.us/my.php?image=spartanbe2.jpg

[florin80]

You`re not the only one who feels that way. I`ve just saw SoR explaining why he prefers corinthian to pylos even if they are less historicaly. You could change them in your game if you want. There are a lot of spartan units from different timeframes that you can dl.

[Companion Cavalry]

Oh no, these stupid hollywood "historical info" people are being fed to like

dogs with old pieces of bread.

Spartans surrendered countless times like any other military power

in the world in total. It is absolutely wrong to say they never surrendered

[svramj]

Oh no, these stupid hollywood "historical info" people are being fed to like

dogs with old pieces of bread.

Spartans surrendered countless times like any other military power

in the world in total. It is absolutely wrong to say they never surrendered

yup....even with those Legions....they made the Lorica Segamenta....and the RED color....

[Phillius_Ceasar]

It's Funny how people think the Spartans were god-like warriors who never surrenderd or never tired but the truth is... they were only HUMAN!!! They only were considered the Elite Warriors due to they were the only Professional and Standardised army of the Era. Other Greek cities were vollenteer forces with mixed-matched equipment. And like the Romans they were victorius with compantant leadership and supiour tactics like at Thermopoly. The Prussians were poorly Trained Conscripts fighting a Wall Of Spears in a compact mountain Pass. Plus their were other Greeks there too... as most people dont know it was around 300 spartans with other greeks... i belive 3000+ other Greeks but i'm not sure.(dont Quote me on that) The SPartans were not Gods only Well-Lead and Trained Warriors.

[Schabbes]

It's Funny how people think the Spartans were god-like warriors who never surrenderd or never tired but the truth is... they were only HUMAN!!! They only were considered the Elite Warriors due to they were the only Professional and Standardised army of the Era. Other Greek cities were vollenteer forces with mixed-matched equipment. And like the Romans they were victorius with compantant leadership and supiour tactics like at Thermopoly.

The funny thing is that in order to be an exceptional fighter, you need to devote a lot of time to training. From about 640 BC onwards, the Spartans, or rather: the small minority of the homoioi ("the equals", the fully entitled citizens with a klaros - a considerable piece of land) had that time, because they had conquered Messenia, turned the population into slaves and let them do all the work. The homoioi could practice all day, because they didn't have to push the plough or anything; the helotes would do that for them. After the battle of Leuktra, however, Messenia was lost, and thereby the economic basis for a "professional" army. The Spartans (even though they were Spartans) still needed to eat, and had to work for their food themselves. No time for training all day!

I'm not a military history guy, but from what I know, I don't quite understand why Spartan soldiers of the 3rd and 2nd century should be in any way superiour to other Greek soldiers. Ever since the late 5th century, there had been a substantial all-Greek professional soldiery anyway, who devoted their life to war much in the way the earlier Spartans had, with the exception that they fought for money: the mercenaries. They hailed from all over the place, not only Sparta. Xenophon's Anabasis tells the story of an army of these Greek mercenaries and their long march to Kunaxa and back through large parts of the Persian empire (which a Macedonian Prince, who was to become Alexander III. later on, read carefully).

I guess the representation of the Spartans in popular films and games is mostly due to the myth of Spartan training and superiority. Much of what we know about Sparta is mythology anyway, the literary sources come from outsiders, Xenophon who adored Sparta and wanted to present it as a superiour state. Others wanted to tell the most devilish stories about Sparta and represented it as a hellhole in which children were left to die if they were weak, and, if they survived, taught to steal and kill (which would be rather silly in an educational system which focused on discipline and obedience). One of the few genuine Spartan writers is Tyrtaios, an archaic poet who wrote war song to make the Spartans be steadfast in battle (which they, as it seems, weren't always- Tyrtaios wouldn't have had to write his songs if the Spartan phalanx would have been unbreakable from the start).

Considering that the low birthrate was a constant problem, it is also highly unlikely a newborn baby would be left to die in the mountains. It would also seem odd the Helotes would be killed regularly for practice, because these people were growing the food the Spartans ate. Later on, Helotes were even equipped with weapons and deployed as soldiers.

In the 5th century, the homoioi were indeed superiour warriors, but people tend to forget that they were a minority in the Spartan army - most of that army was, later on, made up of perioikoi (~underprivileged allies) - and the Spartans were often quite hesitant to use their military force, because they feared losing precious homoioi.

I love sending those digital Spartan supermen to battle, but I guess there is not much historical background in them. Anyway, as of yet, I don't have the RTR mod installed, so I don't know how they are represented there - but I guess they won't have 2 hitpoints!

Greetings
Schabbes

[Switch]

The Prussians were poorly Trained Conscripts fighting a Wall Of Spears in a compact mountain Pass

You mean the Persians? Unless history has lied to me and the Spartans (and other Greeks) were fighting off hordes of pale-skinned barbarian types with a lot of facial hair?

And aye, the Spartans did indeed look like they do in RTR. Those bloody Corinthian helmets are depicted everywhere, but that's just because they look cool, but were impractical/not used that much come the RTR timeline (just like many people wonder where the vanilla legionairies went..).

The Spartans were definitely toughies. As Phillius Caesar pointed out, they had for a long time the only standing professional army of any Greek city, and as such were well drilled and more prone to stand and fight (and indeed fight well). But they still got beaten. And were frequently pretty thick. But that's a different argument for a different day.

[icydawgfish]

I prefer the Corth. helm over the pylos, so is there a link someone can give me for another model. I don't want a 300 spartan model, just a spartan w/4th or 5th century BC armor.

[Phillius_Ceasar]

Sorry about the Prussians i did mean the Persians. I dont know what i was thinking there. oh and i know there was other Greeks there too. I belive 3000+ but dont quote me. In fact one source said 900 Helot were there too and died with the Spartans and other greeks.

[Switch]

Yeah, 3-4000 is about right for the first few days of the battle. Then Leonidas sent most of them home, but a few hundred Thebans (or possibly Thessalians - I forget... Or maybe even Plateaeans!) refused to leave, so fought alongside the 298 Spartans and their Helots. That's if my memory of Herodotus serves me, and if he was telling the truth.

[sumaznguy]

Spartans were only such great warriors because they trained from like the age of 7 and retired at age of 60. Most of their lives were dedicated to training and fighting. And they trained so much so that they can prevent their helots from rebelling.

[Phillius_Ceasar]

Spartans were only such great warriors because they trained from like the age of 7 and retired at age of 60. Most of their lives were dedicated to training and fighting. And they trained so much so that they can prevent their helots from rebelling.

That means they were a garrison force then. if thats their goal it make sence to have every male serve to prevent an uprising.

[Companion Cavalry]

There were maybe 2000 greeks aided by a spartan regiment at

Thermopylae. Leonidas ordered the other greeks to leave to help defend their

own cities while he delayed the persians. Even then each soldier had maybe

three slaves helping with their baggage so we are looking at "the last stand of

the 1200" or so

[Solaris]

Yes, but you never count non combatants in a battle figure.

[Phillius_Ceasar]

Who says their non-combatants. after the humiliation of the fist couple of days do you think Xercxes would take prisonors? the Helots probaly fought too.

[Companion Cavalry]

They count, Solaris, because they aided their masters (in vain)

by trying to punch away persians and also they fell in battle with the spartan

regiment, "the last stand" does not necessarily refer to soldiers, does it?