Novgorod Campaign with SS 4.1, Lusted's CAI/BAI, VH/VH, and RC

[Vaxholm]

Had an interesting (and short) experience with a grand campaign using Novgorod last night. I had just downloaded the most recent CAI and BAI by Lusted as well as the latest RC and was eager to test them out. Here's my thoughts.

Obviously, Novgorod is in a difficult position with only two starting location and both towns not castles. I was left to try to fight to obtain a castle in one of the rebel territories nearby using basically militia soldiers.

Here's the rough course of events that led to a quick rise and fall of my Novgorod empire:

1. I took Helsinki at the request of the council.
2. I built a large army with the knowledge that I had poor soldiers, but thought I could make up for it in numbers. This left me earning negative money year over year due to only having three settlements.
3. I drove south Mensk, which I found sieged by the Kievan Rus.
4. I headed east for the next settlement. Finding the settlements was difficult even using a spy because they were so spread out. Plus, with supply chain traits on, my armies quickly became despondent due to no road. I like the supply chain concept, but I feel that the effects take hold two quickly. As I lost movement points, it kept taking me the same amount of moves to get to the same settlement. For example, to Ryasin my initial movement estimate was say 7 turns. Then 3 turns into it, I was only 6 turns away, because of the movement penalties. I found this a little unrealistic, as a army in real life can actually set up a supply chain to support itself as long as it's unbroken by an enemy. Still, I like the feature because it's challenging but would like the turns that it takes effect to be doubled. As an aside, you only get this supply chain penalty when you have a general at the head of your army. I've found that it's often easier just to leave your general at home and send the army out to avoid the penalty. I don't like doing this because it feels like an exploit, but sometimes I have no choice if no general is available.
5. Because it was taking me so long to move my massive army from settlement to settlement, I was accruing a massive debt (I think it got up to $14k).
6. At this point, the Danes landed by Helsinki with the intent to take it. Finding it occupied by me, the didn't attack, but also didn't move away. They just stayed by my settlement, thus tying up my secondary army stationed there which I had hoped to use to take Riga. I know this is common for the AI to just get confused and hang out, but it leaves you with no options but either attack them (starting a war, which I didn't want) or remain stationary (also suboptimal).
7. I continue to fight might way to the east with my massive army taking smaller settlements and hoping that the tax revenues will eventually be enough to pay for my military. I quickly find that this is not the case, because all the settlements are underdeveloped.
8. I have no allies, but trade rights and a good relationship with Kievan Rus and Poland. I can't build a diplomat, because I have no money, so I'm left to the whims of my neighbors.
9. At this point, the Danes get tired of just hanging out and decide to attack Helsinki. I bet them off easily with my archers and Kazaks. The Danes continue to through waves of armies at me (probably 4 or 5) before they finally request a ceasefire. I assume they have no money now, so I make a counter offer to obtain Stockholm, which they accept.
10. Now, I have about 5 regions in the Russia area plus Stockholm, which was a pleasant surprise. You'd think I'd be sitting pretty since I've tripled my empire from 2 to 6 settlements. However, I'm still making no money, but have just broken even on a year over year basis. Why? Because the computer gave me five units of mercenary crossbowmen when I gained Stockholm, and they're so expensive they drain my budget.
11. Despite the ceasefire, the Danes again decide to attack Stockholm and then Helsinki again. Again, I beat them back, but do lose Stockholm in the process. However, when they decide they want a ceasefire, I'm able to negotiate for Stockholm once more, thus reclaiming my lost territory. I found this to be odd, but not out of the question.
12. This, you could say, was the pinnacle of my empire. I've finally broken even and am working my way out of debt.
13. Things now go to pot as the Danes began to relentlessly purse me by breaking the ceasefire again. Also, the Kievan Rus in the south, whom I had an very good relationship with and had actually turned away from my settlements a couple of times, decided to attack.
14. My main army is in the far northeast corner of the map at this point, and it would take at least 10 turns to get remotely close to the action, plus when I got there, they'd be basically useless due to supply chain penalties.
15. Slowly taking my settlement, the Danes and Kievan Rus alternately ask for me to become their vassal, which, of course, I refuse.
16. It becomes apparent quickly that all those years of debt have caused my settlements and armies to be woefully undeveloped, and I'm quickly outclassed by both my enemies. Since they smell blood in the water, they refuse my pleas (from a princess) for a ceasefire.
17. I die a relatively quick and painless death at that point.
18. One other major contributing factor to my downfall was the whole "Incites a Revolt" trait for the king. I must say, I like the idea, but in practice it can destroy your empire without any recourse from you to stop it. I lost Moscow, my main city, because one of my male family members came of age and immediately (at age 16) revolted and locked himself in the city so I couldn't move him. I just abandoned the city and sieged it once it revolted and he died. I know this is not unrealistic, but it seems a little to powerful to me.

Well, I hope this will give some incites to Lusted, BBB, and the SS team to make improvements, but if not I just thought it was interesting. I'm going to give Novgorod another try today and see if I can do a little better. I've been playing these games since Shogun and always play VH/VH and that's probably the worse I've ever done.

[Lusted]

On VH the AI will go after the player a lot, if you play on H this happens a lot less.

[Vaxholm]

Would you say H is more realistic? I like a challenge, but I felt like I was just being harassed to some extent.

Here's a question I've been wondering about? Is there anyway to build into the diplomacy a "Remove your army from my territory" demand. Sometimes, neutral and even allied countries seem to just plant an army on my land. I just find it odd that you can request military access, but it seems useless sense the enter your regions whether they have access or not.

Should I just assume that if they're in one of my regions they're intending to attack even if they're an ally?

Awesome work by the way Lusted! Hats off to you. Check out this other post I made, as I'd be interested to get your thoughts.

[Quark]

Vaxholm
My view is that H/VH is the best mix for playing the game. I have not played as Novgorod, but I belive the accepted strategy is to take Vilnius (to deal with Poland), Helsinki (Denmark), Riga and ignore anything to the east as they do not produce enough revenue. You can then go for Mensk and after that Smolesk as its a fort you don't need it. Try to get an alliance with Denamrk and Kiev Rus, trade with Hungry and Poland. Poland should be your first target.

[Vaxholm]

Good tips, Quark. Thanks. That was actually my plan, roughly speaking. It's clear that the eastern regions are worthless early on, but I wonder if you can set the tax setting to low, let them build a population quickly, then use them as a good source of revenue mid game.

[Drakkar]

I understand you Vaxholm!

I played Novgorod for long time, (and i'll probably play another time in SS 5.0 )!

This is my favourite faction (dvor\cossaks) for many reason.

I think that VH is tough but it is the only game for people who don't want to win easily or who don't want to win ever.

I played a lot with Lusted CAI and you can actually made alliance in VH with one or even two factions if you do it early or if you know how to do it.

Also you will prevent other factions to attack you if you have good garrisoned cities\castles.

And you need a good overall army to prevent this also.

Ai make some kind of comparison when it need to decide who attack.

If you want to play novgorod VH you need to know how to do early alliances, how to face mongols, and how to prevent too many factions to hate you.
Also i strongly suggest to reduce rebels spawn cause your territories are too large to chase rebels everywhere.

I'm actually playing a Denmark VH campaign and i got 2 alliance (sicily\poland). i can have another 2 if i want. it is really challenging and funny for me. sometimes i got really smashed by someone. nice!

[Caesar Clivus]

You can but it takes a LONG time. If you can, take Riga and Thorn before anyone else does. Riga is a great source of income and Thorn is a very strategically placed castle to take on Poland. Also, get trade rights agreement with Denmark and poland: you'll get more trade revenue from Novgorod and Riga.

[Lusted]

Is there anyway to build into the diplomacy a "Remove your army from my territory" demand.

Nope.

[klops]

Off-topic, BUT: There shouldn't be a rebel settlement Helsinki for you to be conquered. Helsinki was founded in the 16th century. Yes, I know the game can't be all historically accurate because it's intended to be fun and playable but during MTW2 time there already was a town in the same region. It was -and still is- called Turku.

So once again I request that Helsinki should be moved couple squares to west and renamed Turku.

[Caesar Clivus]

Off-topic, BUT: There shouldn't be a rebel settlement Helsinki for you to be conquered. Helsinki was founded in the 16th century. Yes, I know the game can't be all historically accurate because it's intended to be fun and playable but during MTW2 time there already was a town in the same region. It was -and still is- called Turku.

So once again I request that Helsinki should be moved couple squares to west and renamed Turku.

Post this in the suggestions thread at the top of the page to make sure KK sees it

[Vaxholm]

Quick update. I spent a fair amount of time today trying Novgorod on H/VH, with much better success and reasonable reactions from the AI on all accounts. I did exactly as was suggested and took Riga, Helsinki, and Vilnius first followed by Mensk and on eastwards and northwards. I got Warsaw in an Alliance negotiation with Poland and, oddly, Belgrade in an Alliance negotiation with Hungary. Currently allied with Kievan Rus, Hungary, and Poland and at war with HRE over Thorn, Warsaw, Riga, and Vilnius depending on where they attack.

The consequence of looking west first has allowed the Seljuks to push northwards on the far eastern front, and they are attempting to take the north eastern most settlement. Strangely, I feel like they've picked my back pocket and once my war with HRE is settled, and if I'm not obliterated, I intend on taking the measly settlements. I feel there is a good chance that the Kievan Rus will backstab me, because they have a couple of armies lined up at our shared borders. This would probably cause my 11 region empire to fall, as I couldn't fight in three directions given the immense amount of distance you have to travel to move your armies (I've had to build roads first in all provinces).

This is still one of the more challenging campaigns I've done since there is not a lot of wealthy provinces, all the provinces start small and take forever to grow (which limits your access to good troops), and the early infantry for Novgorod is very weak, even the Druzhina. The cavalry is good but expensive and takes forever to get it. Regardless, it's one of the funnest I've played due to the challenge and recommend it to anyone.

Lusted, one thing I've noticed with the BAI during sieges is that they bring they're troops into firing range of my missile units on the walls even though they don't have to. They may have a battering ram and two sets of ladders, but the armies not manning those siege weapons will just stand in my firing zone and take casualties. All the TW games have been like this, and it seems very unrealistic. Is there any way to make the non-participating troops hold off until the gates have been taken?

[Lusted]

Is there any way to make the non-participating troops hold off until the gates have been taken?

Not really no. The AI is already set to try and keep a certain distance away from the towers based on thier range but it doesn't always do it.

[Caesar Clivus]

Vaxholm I forgot to mention that another great source of income is Kiev itself. In my Novgorod campaign, I took Kiev and got a nice 2k income from it. I then went on and took Rostov and Kievan Rus was no more (Byzantines took Caffa). If you feel like their gonna backstab you, do it first yourself

Glad to see you're having a better time of Novgorod. It's my favourite faction in the game

[Ma'ahes]

Well, the smaller the nation, the harder it is to make alliances on VH. As Kiev and Novgorod, I've found no one will even trade map info unless I'm paying them 1k. Conversely, as Byz I'm able to even get some cash in return sometimes. Anyways, why in the hell is the AI so protective of map info? Sometimes they'll give up two provinces before they'll relinquish some map info.

[nakago]

i am playing denmark on VH/VH with UAI 1.6...

WAY Too easy to make early alliances. i ended up fighting only 1 enemy at a time. the whole campaign... way, i guess the rule is to playing H, with novograd, byzantine, maybe scottland. but some of the richer factions you should stick with VH? just a thought.

[Vaxholm]

Here's an update on the campaign. I'm really enjoying playing on H versus VH. The other nations seem to act reasonably. For example, I've been able to maintain long term alliances with Poland, Hungary, and Denmark. All four of us are battling against HRE who has become extremely powerful. I nearly lost Riga to HRE at one point, and it looked like the war was turning against me, but at the very moment HRE's army was set to attack Riga the pope called a crusade. HRE's army turned south and headed towards Jerusalem.

Enjoying this diversion, I quickly built a small force and was able to take both Thorn and Stettin while HRE was away in the middle east. Now that the crusade is over, however, HRE has turned it's focus back onto me. I've even been forced to defend against remaining crusade units such as Crusader Knights, which is difficult. They're focusing they're armies on recapturing Stettin, and I'm having a difficult time defending it, but this is the fun part of course.

On the western front, I've managed to capture the last remaining rebel settlement, Kirov. I'm concerned about the Seljuk Sultanate, but they seem unable to muster a large force that far to the north. In addition, the Mongols have just arrived on the scene, and I expect the Seljuks to quickly come under fire from them, which may present me with an opening for capturing the remaining "motherland" regions.

I'm having a very difficult time gaining any kind of income. All my money seems to go to replenishing my troops in the war with HRE. As a consequence, Moscow has started to rebel due to Muslim and Heretic influences. The regions are so large, I've had to build watchtowers everywhere, but I'm still have a hard time finding and squashing these agents, and I can't afford an army to just go around killing rebels. My lone assassin has been useless so far and has no kills in probably 5 attempts.

Lastly, my towns and castles are finally growing, but I don't have the money to upgrade them as quickly as I'd like. I've attempted on several occasions to broker a peace treaty with HRE, but they're not having it. I need a respite from this war in order to rebuild and upgrade my troops and settlements, but I can't get it. In a first ever, HRE is so wealthy, that they will actually accept ransoms for their troops. I think I've gotten about 1700 for some already. Unfortunately, I've been executing a lot of troops because I capture generals that I don't want them to have back.

I agree that map information should be traded more easily. Also, I've noticed that trade rights actually count for something positive, which is a good change. I think that when you have a princess, there should be an age limit for the husbands they're presented with. I know in reality they may have been presented with a 54 year old, but for in game mechanics he might die two years later. Of course I pass on these, but then my princesses sometimes go husbandless. The BAI looks great and I've seen some cavalry attempt to go completely around my formations. Also they pull away from the front lines if I attempt to flank them, so that they'll meet my cavalry with their own.

How long can I hold out against HRE, the rebels, and the Muslim religious influence? Only time will tell... Any suggestions on how to get a peace deal with HRE? They seem to accept nothing.

[Warriorset]

Russian provinces income should be boosted as they are so large and difficult to guard and they are actually giving a ridiculous income...

[Caesar Clivus]

Russian provinces income should be boosted as they are so large and difficult to guard and they are actually giving a ridiculous income...

I disagree. Historically those areas were never very productive. The winters were too long and the summer's too short that far north.

Game balance-wise, it would give Novgorod and Kievan Rus too big of an advantage to have a number of lucrative provinces that no-one else can realistically get to. They are supposed to be like that to force the russian factions to invade west and south to get any sort of decent income. It's part of playing Novgorod and Kievan Rus.

[Gorrrrrn]

Might help if Novgorod (and all factions for that matter) started the game with at least 1 town hall and a diplomat. At least you can go around selling off map information, trade rights, alliances which would help the finances in the early turns.

Equally all factions should start the game with at least 1 town or city.

[Vaxholm]

Caesar, I agree with everything you said except that no other factions will take the north east provinces. In fact that is exactly what the Seljuk Sultanate has done to me. I haven't taken Kiev yet, but I have Warsaw, which is a decent money maker, and I'm still struggling with income.

I have only played three factions so far: France - too easy, Spain - medium, and Novgorod. So far, Novgorod has been the most difficult but also the funnest. I think it could use some fine tuning (rebels specifically) but that can be said of all factions. In general, I think that just because it's hard doesn't make it wrong.