Why are cavalry charges so devastating?

[Paktu]

It's pretty routine for me to see a general's bodyguard charge some of my heavy infantry and nearly wipe out the unit in a matter of seconds. What gives?

[Banjeeboy]

Isn´t that "working as intented"?
The mounted lance charge -should- break a unit if they have flat ground and high speed.
They can´t charge if you're up on a hill, or in broken terrain.

[Smarmy]

Heavy infantry aren't end all/kill all. If they were heavy spears, then that general likely took more costly casualties than you did, but you can't kill everything with an iron-clad mob of swordsmen.

[Exalion]

Lances are made of wood, not steal. Wood breaks. Also, while horses WOULD knock down a lot of guys and perhaps trample a few, it wouldn't be to the effect that we see in The Long Road. I've, personally, been run into by a horse going at full speed. You aren't thrown under a lot of the times. Their broad chest tends to just shove you out of the way, and while you're bruised, it's nothing as bad as, say, being pierced by a lance. Darthmod does a good job of simulating what a cavalry charge would do. It'd kill quite a few men, but most would just be knocked over. Cavalry charges were devastating for more than just killing men. They disrupted formations, giving the line a chance to break through.

[Banjeeboy]

I suppose the effect on morale would be bigger than the actual impaling/trampling... I always thought of the cavalry charges as "breaking" a unit, and not exterminating it... too bad it doesn´t show up in the battle statistics (neither do they rout that easily either)

[Exalion]

Yeah. If they're going to make an entire unit vanish from a cavalry charge, they could at least find a way to make it so a vast majority of the men in that unit were only wounded.

Also, the morale is a bit ridiculous, isn't it? I'm sure many of the Lords back in Medieval times wished their peasant militias would fight from 150 men to the last 10 men against 280 well trained and armoured knights. XD.

[SonOfCrusader76]

Lances are made of wood, not steal. Wood breaks. Also, while horses WOULD knock down a lot of guys and perhaps trample a few, it wouldn't be to the effect that we see in The Long Road. I've, personally, been run into by a horse going at full speed. You aren't thrown under a lot of the times. Their broad chest tends to just shove you out of the way, and while you're bruised, it's nothing as bad as, say, being pierced by a lance. Darthmod does a good job of simulating what a cavalry charge would do. It'd kill quite a few men, but most would just be knocked over. Cavalry charges were devastating for more than just killing men. They disrupted formations, giving the line a chance to break through.

Ouch!! How the hell did that happen??

[Condottiere SOG]

you 170lbs of meat and 50lbs of armor at a standstill

enemy 150lbs of meat and 60 lbs of armor on a destrier that weighs in at 2000lbs and coated with 100lbs of armor @ 45 miles an hour

do the physics>who do think is going to win?>F=MA

220lbs vs. 103950lbs.

Who do think is going to get tossed like a rag doll?

The thing with pikes is( just try and experiment with your friend) try to get your horse to charge spears, pikes, or other polearms. In history, WHen this is tried the horses realizing the danger slow up or even stop before reaching the enemy and then foot unit would advance upon these cavalry units and destroy them. However, this is not true of all warhorses.

[Banjeeboy]

Loose formations, and moving around helps a lot against cavalry charges ingame actually.
On a sidenote; I saw some mounted policemen earlier today, man... those horses are really, really huge.
I can´t imagine anyone standing ground against a cavalry charge... you probable need a long pike and a good confidence

[Darkarbiter]

Loose formations, and moving around helps a lot against cavalry charges ingame actually.
On a sidenote; I saw some mounted policemen earlier today, man... those horses are really, really huge.
I can´t imagine anyone standing ground against a cavalry charge... you probable need a long pike and a good confidence

Especially armoured cavlry.

[seyfert]

you 170lbs of meat and 50lbs of armor at a standstill

enemy 150lbs of meat and 60 lbs of armor on a destrier that weighs in at 2000lbs and coated with 100lbs of armor @ 45 miles an hour

do the physics>who do think is going to win?>F=MA

220lbs vs. 103950lbs.

Who do think is going to get tossed like a rag doll?

The thing with pikes is( just try and experiment with your friend) try to get your horse to charge spears, pikes, or other polearms. In history, WHen this is tried the horses realizing the danger slow up or even stop before reaching the enemy and then foot unit would advance upon these cavalry units and destroy them. However, this is not true of all warhorses.

20000lbs at 45mph is a gross exageration. But your point is valid. Add to it a formation with sharp pointy lances and you'll start to see the problem for infantry. Spears aren't an issue, Spear walls are, which aren't quite the same thing.

BTW its not F=MA its 0.5MV^2 I worked it out for an 'average' horse and the lance point had about the same kinetic energy as a 0.5 cal. I didn't do it for a heavy warhorse, but I suspected it hurt more.

Even horses at a standstill are a dangerous prospect, the rider has advantage of height and a nasty down stroke on to the infantry man's head. The only way to stand any real chance is to prevent them from moving, easier said than done, and to overwhelm the rider with weight of numbers.

Loose formations, and moving around helps a lot against cavalry charges ingame actually.
On a sidenote; I saw some mounted policemen earlier today, man... those horses are really, really huge.
I can´t imagine anyone standing ground against a cavalry charge... you probable need a long pike and a good confidence

And the heavy warhorse of the game period were bigger heavier and trained to attack people! As a side note during the filming of War and Peace, the battle of Boridino (SP?) was shot using the red army. There is one scene of where the French cavalry charge the Russian soldiers. The actual shot involved the French horse riding past the soldiers at an oblique angle. From the camera it looked like they were riding into them. The shot took some time to take as the soldiers kept running away, even though the horses were running past them! You can argue about the quality of the 'actors' but they knew the horses were going past not into them.

[Condottiere SOG]

20000lbs at 45mph is a gross exageration. But your point is valid. Add to it a formation with sharp pointy lances and you'll start to see the problem for infantry. Spears aren't an issue, Spear walls are, which aren't quite the same thing.

BTW its not F=MA its 0.5MV^2 I worked it out for an 'average' horse and the lance point had about the same kinetic energy as a 0.5 cal. I didn't do it for a heavy warhorse, but I suspected it hurt more.

Even horses at a standstill are a dangerous prospect, the rider has advantage of height and a nasty down stroke on to the infantry man's head. The only way to stand any real chance is to prevent them from moving, easier said than done, and to overwhelm the rider with weight of numbers.



And the heavy warhorse of the game period were bigger heavier and trained to attack people! As a side note during the filming of War and Peace, the battle of Boridino (SP?) was shot using the red army. There is one scene of where the French cavalry charge the Russian soldiers. The actual shot involved the French horse riding past the soldiers at an oblique angle. From the camera it looked like they were riding into them. The shot took some time to take as the soldiers kept running away, even though the horses were running past them! You can argue about the quality of the 'actors' but they knew the horses were going past not into them.

Are you daft? I never said 20000lbs. DER!

Also, F=MA is the root of your equation and was used long before.

wrong time period, Mr. Jones!

I am not here to get into it with you, so stop with the argument.

[seyfert]

Are you daft? I never said 20000lbs. DER!

Also, F=MA is the root of your equation and was used long before.

wrong time period, Mr. Jones!

I am not here to get into it with you, so stop with the argument.

Your right I should've typed 2000, which is still a gross exageration, but its nice to see the mature brigade out in force.

[Condottiere SOG]

Mature brigade is in effect!

Even an artillery shell hits with thousands of pounds of force.

Tell you what-go and do an actual test.

Then you'll see why what you say is BS.

I am so tired of you-joule and calorie-goons trying to explain force with heat equations or some minute MV equation that is too finite for this game's use or just a mentioning of details which are not conducive to this mod.

I'll call this one; An Ode To A Slavering Meat-Hammer!

Meat Hammerism Rules-Silencing the crowds with stupidity since the SIXTH DAY!

[Henry X]

Mature brigade is in effect!

Even an artillery shell hits with thousands of pounds of force.

Tell you what-go and do an actual test.

Then you'll see why what you say is BS.

I am so tired of you-joule and calorie-goons trying to explain force with heat equations or some minute MV equation that is too finite for this game's use or just a mentioning of details which are not conducive to this mod.

I'll call this one; An Ode To A Slavering Meat-Hammer!

Meat Hammerism Rules-Silencing the crowds with stupidity since the SIXTH DAY!

Dude, WTF

[Oswald von Wolkenstein]

Because they keep raising their interest rates.

[Fargham]

This thread stinks to high heaven, but I'm going to chime in anyway.

1) Yes a lance breaks, but that is after it has delivered its full force of momentum into the enemy soldier. When the lance doesn't break, is when it delivers less of its momentum. Steel/Wood has no merit in this argument. Wood splinters can pierce steel/stone/ect when backed up by enough force.

2) Most armor was designed to deflect blows, not completely stop them. Even in the case of bullet proof armor, a .44 round can bruise you, and cause internal bleeding, even though the round does not penetrate the skin.

3) In most cavalry charges, the horses kept going, kept running until they had no more momentum left. Even though the rider could only get 1 person with their lance... the horse itself could potentially hit a couple more depending on how much momentum was lost each person they hit.

4) While the impact from a horse hitting you might not be enough to kill you (though it certainly can) it would be enough to knock the wind out of you, effectively knocking you out of the battle enough that a child could come by and kill you if they felt so inclined.

5) Even if you were to get a lucky hit and kill the horse, or the rider, they've still got a ton of momentum backing them up, and they are going to plow through your line, injuring and killing many.

6) In MTW2, not everyone dies from these charges. A lot of times the unit routs, and is immediately rounded up as prisoners(as horses are a lot faster than they can flee). They are, however, effectively, out of the battle, and thus the game engine eliminates them from your screen to provide faster game play for the rest of the battle, or for reinforcements to replace them. Have you ever noticed that your general seems to round up an absurd number of prisoners, compared to, say your archers, or even your heavy infantry?

Also whats the deal with arguing about things you agree upon? Force, Momentum, and Energy all play an important part in why cavalry are so mean.

To the OP - When you see the cavalry coming, get your heavy infantry behind some spearmen. Heavy Cavalry were the historical answer to heavy infantry, and spearmen were the answer to heavy cavalry. It just so happens its that way in TLR too.

[Fenix_120]

Ok, I'm gonna tell you guys some stuff about history.


1: A Knights(or any heavy calvary for that matter) lance had a steel head, so the fact that the actual lance is made of wood is a moot point. Lances designed for tournaments would break after one or two tilts, Lances for combat? different story.

I can tell you that aged wood is far stronger than new wood, I can tell you Cider and oak are far stronger than other types of wood.

At the battle of Hastings(the first major battle where crouched lances were used btw) Norman Knights charged and recharged the Saxons and very few had the time and energy to go back down the hill, grab a new Lance, and then charge back up the hill... So I think its safe to assume that Lances would last a good five charges or so.

And a Lance was 14 - 20 feet long, you could kill more than one man with it.

Charge, hit bloke in front, after skewering him hit bloke behind him, after running him through hit bloke behind him...

2: Heavy calvary was not the answer to heavy infantry, heavy calvary was the answer to spear men.

Thats right, spear men(who could easily kill light calvary).


The first form of heavy calvary that we know about is the ancient Iranian tribes who used the Katapract.

The next big step was the Sarmatian's who took the Katapract idea and improved it with the addition of more weapons(heavy horse archers, they also introduced the Lance to the west) and also trained their horsemen to a high degree, most eastern infantry was very lightly armed(most of them had ether light spears or bows) and armored(a shield made of wicker or wood was common, and if the soldier was lucky he had some leather or cotton armor) , and they were not all that well trained.

So this new form of calvary was at first quite devastating.

This "Sarmatian" Kataphract was then made the norm of heavy calvary in the east, and especially the Median's and Persians fielded many high quality heavy calvary.


3: heavy infantry can stand up to heavy calvary, this has been done many times before.

But the problem comes in that only a highly trained and well armed infantry man can have any hopes of standing up to a elite heavy calvary man.

The Greek Hoplite (even though truly intended to fight other Hoplites) proved to be very effective against heavy calvary, because of their formation no horse would charge the front.

Philip of Macedon improved this with longer spears, and the Romans improved this with better formations and tactics.

But wasn't all of this Knowledge lost during the dark ages?

No, it is very evident that the German and Hunnic "Barbarians" were not as poorly trained or equipped as we have been lead to believe.


The Scandinavian shield wall and the Celtic Shiltrom are both "Children" of the Greek Hoplite's shield wall.


And both proved to be at least useful against heavy calvary.


The Saxons(although they lost the battle) used a shield wall at Hastings and even though the infantry was fairly light they stood up to Norman Knights for a good while, and it was only after they broke formation to chase the Knights that they were defeated.

The Huscarl's were not armed with spears, but they preformed better against the Knights than the spear men did(A Danish ax can decapitate a horse at the blow, even one in barding) and were of course the heavy infantry of the Saxon army.

Medieval Sergeants were very well trained(they were only one step below men-at-arms) and were well equipped, they fought using complex battle formations such as the shield wall and as a result they could stand up to heavy calvary.

But most infantry were not Sergeants, they were just normal soldiers who had been through a boot-camp like training and were light infantry and(most importantly) used only simple formations.

It was more in the Formation than any weapon.

And thats why I figure heavy calvary dominated the medieval battle field.


Now in game? No a unit of heavy calvary should not totally destroy a unit of heavy infantry, but a unit of Knights should win in a one on one for sure, unless the infantry uses a battle formation like a shield wall, spears or no spears.


Sorry for the long post, and I'm not saying "Your all wrong" but rather "Your all Right"

This is my two cents.

[Banjeeboy]

I think one of the major reasons for fielding infantry at all, was a lack of horses. Trained warhorses were very expensive, and usually only in the posession of nobles. (a very minor part of the population)
I usually use a personal houserule of only having a minor part of my armies made up of mounted or dismounted noblemen to reflect this.

[acegogo]

man!!!!!!!! do I like good arguments like this one!!!!

+rep for putting some sense to some Egocentric b****ks