Pikemen

[Almogaver]

I'm sorry but I don't really get what they're good for... They are great against infantry an great against cavalry in melee but they are just like any other unit when cavalry charges head on. Should'nt they be a able to resist a cavalry charge? Am I doing something wrong? have I missed something?:hmmm:

PS. I know phalanx has been disabled but anyway..

[|Lorre|]

I had the same concern: they are quite killers when they get near a mounted unit, but a charge almost destroys them, since they have little armour.

Disabling the phalanx indeed has weakened them against charges, however if you prefer, you can activate this option again, and see what happens

[DaVinci]

I'll check them again soon. It's long ago as i coded and tested them. However, recently in one functionstest, i dealed with Genoese Guardsmen (not upgraded) on my side vs. foot and mounted Hospitaller knights, and the Genoese were superior to them, nearly no losses on the pike unit.

[|Lorre|]

Try to make some cavalry charges on piked unit, if you plan to do some testing.

PS: Genoese rocks.

[DaVinci]

Try to make some cavalry charges on piked unit, if you plan to do some testing.

PS: Genoese rocks.

That is my intention, as the beta testers seem to sleep

P.S. Genoese rock

[Basileios]

That is my intention, as the beta testers seem to sleep

Maybe in my case... My vacation on Sylt was far more challanging than sitting in the office! Errr, or maybe it's just my lack of office-sleep...

Btw way as far as I can remember we were supposed to concentrate on the EARLY era first!:hmmm: Apart of the Kontaratoi there are no pike units in this era... and the Kontaratoi lack the phalanx ability for unknown reason... In addition to that I usually had the superiority of heavy cavalry in my battles - in order to prevent my campaign generaly to rebel...

[|Lorre|]

era... and the Kontaratoi lack the phalanx ability for unknown reason...

The reason is well known: I repeat again that Phalanx formation was disabled months ago (2.1 Beta I guess) by DV, since the AI used it in a bad way and was not so effective. It is disabled for all units.

[DaVinci]

Maybe in my case... My vacation on Sylt was far more challanging than sitting in the office! Errr, or maybe it's just my lack of office-sleep...

Btw way as far as I can remember we were supposed to concentrate on the EARLY era first!:hmmm: Apart of the Kontaratoi there are no pike units in this era... and the Kontaratoi lack the phalanx ability for unknown reason... In addition to that I usually had the superiority of heavy cavalry in my battles - in order to prevent my campaign generaly to rebel...

Don't worry ... Sylt is very nice isle quite some years have past since i was there though.

Basil, look into the beta forum, i left just a new info.

[Basileios]

@|Lorre|

I see! True indeed, the AI didn't perform too good in phalanx, but for CA standards it worked quite well... though this doesn't mean much...
Personly I made quite good use of my pikemen (a customised version of LAca's Heavy Spearmen) and the enemy got slaughters has he should have to be!

EDIT: Just played a bit around with two units having both the same stats with one having phalanx ability and the other hasn't... suprisingly for me, the army including the units with phalanx ability were cut down time and again! Though the phalanx seemed to hold their far better than the spearmen did (the later been more easily been pushed back!) they were far less flexible and far less effective against cavalry...

@DaVinci

Just kidding , but thanks for the info!

[ivan_the_terrible]

Yeah, Genoese Town Guard is very powerful.

In my late genua campaign, I use no other infantry and instead, have armor-upgraded genoese town guard, which wipe floor with just about anything accept charging cavalry.

You might consider weakening them a little bit in the next release, or having their availability reduced. But dont make them completely useless, they're my favourite unit!

[Almogaver]

Disabling the phalanx indeed has weakened them against charges, however if you prefer, you can activate this option again, and see what happens

I've already tried to re-activate the phalanx option but it is horrible. It's far better with phalanx disabled. My only problem is that my pikemen get wiped out by cavalry charges. Apart from that, pikemen behave beautifully and look more realistic.

[DaVinci]

Hm, just made a short custom test 1:1 units, this is though with Darth Battle AI formations file, might have changed a bit the pike deployment, but i doubt there is a significant difference to the vanilla Battle AI formations file in direct melee contact.

So here we go:

My side / AI

1) Test
38 Hospitaller K. / 91 Genoese Guardsmen (pikes)
(those Gen. are medium armoured by default, i believe it was 4 points armour while they have no shield vs. K. armour of 10 or 11 with shield 4-5 and 2hp)
... i charged with the Hospitallers in front of the storming pikemen
Outcome:
1 Hosp. K. left / 57 Gen win

2) Test, less armour pikes Highland pikemen
38 English K. / 113 Highlander (pikes)
(those Scots have 1 armour point, Engl. K. similar to Hosp. stats)
... i charged with the Engl. K. in front of the storming pikemen
Outcome:
0 Engl.. K. left / 84 Highlander win

3) Test, now to compare quick to normal spearmen, here Scots spear militia
38 English K. / 113 militia
(those Militia have 1 armour point, and 5 point shield)
... i charged with the Engl. K. in front of the storming spear miliz
Outcome:
36 Engl.. K. win / 33 left militia run away

This custom battle with all on normal, but difficulty on VH.
---

So do you guys play another mod than me, despite the Darth AI formations file?
Pikes are the death of the knights in this test.
It is possible that the knights charge is weakened with Darth AI formations, it's the only plausible explanation atm., but i actually doubt about this as well, as Darth' modding is in favor for heavy charge behaviour and deployment, while his mods work after his intention in combination with his main mod, so here it is only Darth Battle AI.

I must admit, i clicked with the knights on the enemy one time from far away (start point) and then i left the battle mechanics work ... so no runaway and re-charge tactic applied.

Clear is for me, that i won't go back to phalanx enabled, as the the pikes just start to fight with swords, and that's their death.

You might consider weakening them a little bit in the next release, or having their availability reduced. But dont make them completely useless, they're my favourite unit!

I believe i weakened the Genoese G. already slightly, after my former experience with them, as they are un-upgraded strong like hell, but see above the Highlanders, unarmoured. It looks like i have to increase the pikes' cost significantly more, to reflect their strength.

---
To compare your experience, you guys could initiate the same style of custom battles like mine above, and write it down in the same manner.

[Almogaver]

I don't use darth and I've done many tests and always (really, always) pikemen get reduced to at least 20% of their number with a head on cavalry charge. It's as they had no pikes; but after the first charge the few (very few) survivors do pretty well against the horses. I'll write my tests down as you said when I have more time... time to go to sleep now here in the western mediterranean

[DaVinci]

I don't use darth and I've done many tests and always (really, always) pikemen get reduced to at least 20% of their number with a head on cavalry charge. It's as they had no pikes; but after the first charge the few (very few) survivors do pretty well against the horses. I'll write my tests down as you said when I have more time... time to go to sleep now here in the western mediterranean

How do charge on the pikes, with double-click from far, or how? (See above, what i said to this point, what i made in the cb).

Edit: you can sleep enough when you dead


Part II Test

Now on my side the pikemen

1) Swiss Pikemen 113 / 38 Imperial K.
I charge at the Knights as the AI did above.
Outcome: (after the pikemen don't keep the formation)
Completely overrun/re-charged by the Knights, chaos, pikemen run away
have no number outcome, not worth it.

2) Flemish Pikemen 113 / 38 Imp. K.
(the Flem. are a bit better than the Swiss)
Now i remain defensive with guard modus.
Outcome: after the third or so re-charge of the K.,
they managed to go between my lines, and slaughter
everybody, chaos ...
5 / 29 left.

---

That means for me, that the AI seems to manage the Pikemen pretty good, while i fail with the pikemen vs. AI Knights lol as i fail with Knights vs. AI pikemen ... what the hell? Well, as said i left them do ... not managing the battle myself to trying a AI on both sides ... while i didn't re-charg with Knights, what the AI did always, and i would do as well if i play a battle seriously.

One have to consider, that the armour is very relevant, as described the Genoese medium pikemen on my side were superior vs. charging Knights, and also vs. foot knights.

[|Lorre|]

You might consider weakening them a little bit in the next release, or having their availability reduced. But dont make them completely useless, they're my favourite unit!

This man is a wise guy... and he has good taste about factions, and units too

I tried some custom battles to, and I saw that yes, pikes are sufficiently good against cavalry, it's crucial to place pikemen in good position, because if knights charge them from diagonal, or they are disposed in 2-3 lines (instead of 4-5), the cavalry gets some advantage.

[ivan_the_terrible]

Yes, positioning is very important. In my experience, the Genoese Guard are quite vulnerable to initial cavalry charges, especially heavy cavalry. But if their opponents are on foot or stationary, the guard absolutely maul them. One time, a unit (unupgraded, 0 experience) of GTG held off 3 units of armored sergeants on a wall and only lost 4 men! (although to be fair, the description does state that its effective against armor.)

PS, I'd like to congratulate whoever did the Genoese skins - they're very, very good! Its my favourite Catholic faction.
EDIT: Just saw in teh credits that you did Genua skins Lorre, +rep for great work!

[Condottiere SOG]

the key to making the pikemen work is the

in the battle_ai config

<outflank-analyser>
<unit-priority>
<light-cavalry-vs-phalanx>-45.0</light-cavalry-vs-phalanx>
<light-cavalry-vs-shield-wall>-35.0</light-cavalry-vs-shield-wall>
<light-cavalry-vs-light-infantry>65.0</light-cavalry-vs-light-infantry>
<light-cavalry-vs-heavy-infantry>50.0</light-cavalry-vs-heavy-infantry>
<light-cavalry-vs-light-cavalry>75.0</light-cavalry-vs-light-cavalry>
<light-cavalry-vs-heavy-cavalry>50.0</light-cavalry-vs-heavy-cavalry>
<light-cavalry-vs-artillery>70.0</light-cavalry-vs-artillery>
<light-cavalry-vs-behind-stakes>-20.0</light-cavalry-vs-behind-stakes>
<heavy-cavalry-vs-phalanx>-35.0</heavy-cavalry-vs-phalanx>
<heavy-cavalry-vs-shield-wall>-35.0</heavy-cavalry-vs-shield-wall>
<heavy-cavalry-vs-light-infantry>80.0</heavy-cavalry-vs-light-infantry>
<heavy-cavalry-vs-heavy-infantry>60.0</heavy-cavalry-vs-heavy-infantry>
<heavy-cavalry-vs-light-cavalry>90.0</heavy-cavalry-vs-light-cavalry>
<heavy-cavalry-vs-heavy-cavalry>75.0</heavy-cavalry-vs-heavy-cavalry>
<heavy-cavalry-vs-artillery>70.0</heavy-cavalry-vs-artillery>
<heavy-cavalry-vs-behind-stakes>-10.0</heavy-cavalry-vs-behind-stakes>
<vs-routers>100.0</vs-routers>
<light-infantry-vs-phalanx>-45.0</light-infantry-vs-phalanx>
<light-infantry-vs-light-infantry>55.0</light-infantry-vs-light-infantry>
<light-infantry-vs-heavy-infantry>40.0</light-infantry-vs-heavy-infantry>
<light-infantry-vs-behind-stakes>80.0</light-infantry-vs-behind-stakes>
<light-infantry-vs-artillery>90.0</light-infantry-vs-artillery>
<light-infantry-vs-archers>75.0</light-infantry-vs-archers>
<light-infantry-vs-crossbowmen>75.0</light-infantry-vs-crossbowmen>
<light-infantry-vs-javelinmen>75.0</light-infantry-vs-javelinmen>
<light-infantry-vs-light-cavalry>30.0</light-infantry-vs-light-cavalry>
<light-infantry-vs-heavy-cavalry>20.0</light-infantry-vs-heavy-cavalry>
<heavy-infantry-vs-phalanx>-35.0</heavy-infantry-vs-phalanx>
<heavy-infantry-vs-shield_wall>50.0</heavy-infantry-vs-shield_wall>
<heavy-infantry-vs-light-infantry>65.0</heavy-infantry-vs-light-infantry>
<heavy-infantry-vs-heavy-infantry>60.0</heavy-infantry-vs-heavy-infantry>
<heavy-infantry-vs-behind-stakes>75.0</heavy-infantry-vs-behind-stakes>
<heavy-infantry-vs-artillery>100.0</heavy-infantry-vs-artillery>
<heavy-infantry-vs-archers>75.0</heavy-infantry-vs-archers>
<heavy-infantry-vs-crossbowmen>75.0</heavy-infantry-vs-crossbowmen>
<heavy-infantry-vs-javelinmen>85.0</heavy-infantry-vs-javelinmen>
<heavy-infantry-vs-light-cavalry>55.0</heavy-infantry-vs-light-cavalry>
<heavy-infantry-vs-heavy-cavalry>50.0</heavy-infantry-vs-heavy-cavalry>
<artillery-vs-infantry>80.0</artillery-vs-infantry>
<artillery-vs-cavalry>90.0</artillery-vs-cavalry>
<artillery-vs-artillery>100.0</artillery-vs-artillery>
<archers-vs-cavalry>60.0</archers-vs-cavalry>
<archers-vs-infantry>50.0</archers-vs-infantry>
<archers-vs-artillery>80.0</archers-vs-artillery>
<crossbowmen-vs-cavalry>85.0</crossbowmen-vs-cavalry>
<crossbowmen-vs-infantry>70.0</crossbowmen-vs-infantry>
<crossbowmen-vs-artillery>45.0</crossbowmen-vs-artillery>
<javelinmen-vs-cavalry>50.0</javelinmen-vs-cavalry>
<javelinmen-vs-infantry>60.0</javelinmen-vs-infantry>
<javelinmen-vs-artillery>45.0</javelinmen-vs-artillery>
<gunpowder-infantry-vs-cavalry>80.0</gunpowder-infantry-vs-cavalry>
<gunpowder-infantry-vs-infantry>70.0</gunpowder-infantry-vs-infantry>
<gunpowder-infantry-vs-artillery>50.0</gunpowder-infantry-vs-artillery>
<phalanx-vs-heavy-infantry>70.0<phalanx-vs-heavy-infantry>
<phalanx-vs-light-infantry>65.0<phalanx-vs-light-infantry>
<phalanx-vs-heavy-cavalry>80.0<phalanx-vs-heavy-cavalry>
<phalanx-vs-heavy-cavalry>90.0<phalanx-vs-heavy-cavalry>
<phalanx-vs-artillery>55.0<phalanx-vs-artillery>
<phalanx-vs-phalanx>100.0<phalanx-vs-phalanx>
</unit-priority>
</outflank-analyser>

[DaVinci]

Thanks for the info I'll look at it what settings we have in use atm. in this file, whereas they don't have a role, as long the phalanx code is disabled.
I assume, the above requires the normal phalanx formation code in edu, with sword as second weapon active, right?

[Condottiere SOG]

Thanks for the info I'll look at it what settings we have in use atm. in this file, whereas they don't have a role, as long the phalanx code is disabled.
I assume, the above requires the normal phalanx formation code in edu, with sword as second weapon active, right?

Yes, otherwise(with swords) they classify as heavy infantry. I am not sure if it has an affectation on whether swords are present or not.

[Taneda Santôka]

A bit off-topic, but I ran a few tests between Militia Pikemen and Tercio Pikemen, since they are both available to spain in cities and that once fully armoured, Militia have Attack2, Charge3, Armour6 whereas tercio have Attack2, Charge3, Armour5. So I thought, even if tercio are more expensive, they are pro soldiers, so it might make a difference, but after some tests, it doesnt. I ran 10 battles, VH in green fields, 5 as Spanish Tercio fully armoured, 5 as Catalan Pike militia fully armoured, just clicking on the enmy unit and accelerating, and I lost all battles as Spain and lost twice(close loss) as Catalonia, Pike Militia won 80% of the battles.
So some statas ned to be changed, Tercio are supposed to be pros, but they are potentially weaker (once everybody is upgraded), more expensive and arent fre upkeep units... Same might apply to Aventuros, I'm not sure.