Horsearchers

[Shadowcry]

I read some where that Mongolian Horse Archers at close range could penetrate even plate armor using special arrows. So in Broken Crescent will Certain Civilizations be able to fire its arrows in this way?

[Son of Mao]

That is a good point to bring up horse archers as it is an important factor in BC

[John I Tzimisces]

Well that doesn't make sense because I dont believe the mongols were in europe at the time of plate armour...or were they I believe plate armour became widdely used in the 1500's and the mongols had been mostly expelled from europe by then

Plate armor was being used in Europe definitely prior to the 1300's...it's use was waning in the 1500's with the advent of such formations as the Tercio.

[AlphaDelta]

I read some where that Mongolian Horse Archers at close range could penetrate even plate armor using special arrows. So in Broken Crescent will Certain Civilizations be able to fire its arrows in this way?

We have what we term as 'close bow' turkoman. They are essentially skirmishers that must come in close before firing. Their attack is about 50% stronger than the 'regular bow' turkoman units.

Cheers

[mastaace]

We have what we term as 'close bow' turkoman. They are essentially skirmishers that must come in close before firing. Their attack is about 50% stronger than the 'regular bow' turkoman units.

Cheers

[Darkarbiter]

I read some where that Mongolian Horse Archers at close range could penetrate even plate armor using special arrows. So in Broken Crescent will Certain Civilizations be able to fire its arrows in this way?

Interesting... how would this be implemented?

[Fenix_120]

I read some where that Mongolian Horse Archers at close range could penetrate even plate armor using special arrows. So in Broken Crescent will Certain Civilizations be able to fire its arrows in this way?

Mongol archers could not even pierce mail armor with thier bows.

The only bow that was capable of pierceing mail armor without a bodkin arrow was a cross bow(which the Mongols did use)

The only bow that could pierce full plate was the Welsh/English long-bow with an Connical head arrow.

The Mongols did not use Connical arrow heads, again thier best bet would have been a crossbow.

[Randarkmaan]

Mongol archers could not even pierce mail armor with thier bows.

Crushing victories beg to differ...
I've heard that at close range mail actually affords little protection against bows of most types, and Mongol bows (and Turkic bows which were really similar) were very powerful at least (though I do not think they used that heavy arrows). And I could come around to testing it actually...

[Miraj]

Mongol archers could not even pierce mail armor with thier bows.

What do you exactly base this off?

[Fenix_120]

What do you exactly base this off?

Read some about the Teutonic Knights.

[Miraj]

Sorry buddy, you made the claim, hence you need to back it up.

I, on the other hand, am a modder and don't claim to be a historian.

[Fenix_120]

The battle of Leignitz, the Mongol horsemen drew the Knights away from their supporting infantry.
They then surronded them and attacked with their heavy calvary, but the light Mongol ponies were no match for the powerful war horses the Knights used, and even the heavy Mongol lancers were quite light compaired to European Knights.
They then used about 11000 horse archers to circle and try to kill the 8000 Knights but they found that their arrows were useless against mail armor unless they were fired at a very close distance, like 60 yards or less.
But the problem was when the Mongols tried to close in and fire arrows close, the Knights would throw javilins or their lances and spears at the Mongols who were not in armor.
The Mongols beat the Knights by lighting a fire behind them to scare the horses and by shooting at the horses themselves instead of the Knights.
It takes roughly three or so arrows to drop a man, but eight or ten arrows to drop a horse.
But they discovered they could kill the horse faster than the Knight thanks to his armor.
But even though this was a major defeat for the mostly Polish/Teutonic armies, the Mongols were never the less impressed with the chain-mail that was worn by the Knights.

It is also worth noting that during the Crusades, Muslim soldiers started calling Knights "Fighting hedgehogs" becuase dozens of arrows would stick in the mail and not harm the Knight, and the Turkish archers used a compond bow that was very simular to the Mongol one.
Try reading a book called "battles of the medieval world" made by several authors or "A Chronicle History of Knights" by Andrea Hopkins

[Strelac]

I think you misunderstood this note. Arrows had no problem piercing mail. It was other parts of amour which were worn under the mail which slowed down the arrow impact, resulting in arrow not being as deadly as it could be. Nevertheless arrows did go through, leading to wounds and fatality while on battlefields…it just took more arrows. Since we cannot simulate 11K HA, we must enhance the arrow impact to achieve the game-real life ratio.

[Orretje]

I think you misunderstood this note. Arrows had no problem piercing mail. It was other parts of amour which were worn under the mail which slowed down the arrow impact, resulting in arrow not being as deadly as it could be. Nevertheless arrows did go through, leading to wounds and fatality while on battlefields…it just took more arrows. Since we cannot simulate 11K HA, we must enhance the arrow impact to achieve the game-real life ratio.

You're right in the first part. I saw a programme on TV once (Discovery of Natgeo I think) about the Vikings, they showed the Vikings had superior armor compared to European peasant armies of the time. The Vikings were clad in chainmail with a thick woollen or leather shirt underneath it, and they did some tests showing that not even a large throwing spear (not a small javelin) could pierce the combination if thrown by a machine on maximum human throwing power. The mail essentially blocked the attack, and the underlayer ensured no injury resulted from the tip pointing slightly through the mail. So if a heavy spear thrown at maximum speed (it was from only <5 meters away) cannot penetrate, I don't think an arrow can either. And knights etc. were probably armored heavier than these Viking raiders, so they were probably pretty arrow-proof.

[Strelac]

Javelin just doesn't have speed to make penetration as arrow fired from composite bows..it’s relaying primarily on mass to do the damage.
I agree that with range, arrow power would decline, ultimately leading to loss of effective energy, hence, BC idea of short range powerful HA would be realistic and well fit.

Btw, all those accounts of crusaders being hit by dozen arrows do not mention anything about from where did arrows got fired. Muslim and mongol HA could fire the arrows 200 meters away accurately…but is that the same as arrow fired 50 m away…don’t think so.

[Fenix_120]

They were not "arrow proof", the Mongol bows could pierce the armor if it was fired at close range, but the deal was getting within 60 yards to do so that close to a Knight was the worst thing you could do.

The armor worn by the vikings was made from iron, and had only one layer and covered only the torso area of the body.

The armor that Knights wore was made from steel, had three layers around the torso and legs, two around the neck and arms, and one layer for the coif, gloves or mittens and boots(this is a rough deign as it varied by culture and in cases by city or town)

Strelac Yes, the mail alone was enough to stop an arrow, but the boiled leather breast plate and cotton gambersom did make the armor nearly im-pierce-able.

The things that could get through a Knights armor was a direct thrust with a long sword, a direct hit with a lance, or a cross bow or a battle axe.

The Turkish mail was usually only a single layer all over... so with that it would be more on the gambersom underneath and on the lammes worn over the mail.

Foot-soldiers wore an chain mail that covered only the torso, but this armor was double layered and worn over boiled leather and they wore other leather armor, this was called a "Brigand" and the modern word does come from this armor(as Foot soldiers had a bad habit of looting their enemies)


But to answer you question sir, no the Mongols could not pierce plate armor without the cross bow.

A bow could pierce armor if it had the proper arrow head, but these arrows used by the English such as the Bodkin and Conical were not used by the Mongols.

[teh.frickin.pope]

Foot-soldiers wore an chain mail that covered only the torso, but this armor was double layered and worn over boiled leather and they wore other leather armor, this was called a "Brigand" and the modern word does come from this armor(as Foot soldiers had a bad habit of looting their enemies)

Not to be pedantic, but this



Is Brigandine, which comes from the word Brigand, which I believe was a generic term for infantry.

[Strelac]

Right, as you described it earlier, the goal was to harass opponents, dismount knights by killing the horses underneath. Once grounded, even the best knight was no match for fast moving, always firing HA, which now could come very close to fire some rounds which counted

[Fenix_120]

Right, as you described it earlier, the goal was to harass opponents, dismount knights by killing the horses underneath. Once grounded, even the best knight was no match for fast moving, always firing HA, which now could come very close to fire some rounds which counted

Unless the Knight had a shield...

[Fenix_120]

Thats a Brigadine, a brigand was an earlier form and even then that Brigadine was worn over mail.

Thats also called a "jack-of-plates" nowadays to not confuse it with the Brigand, which is called also called "splint-mail" thanks to role-playing games such as dungeons and dragons.