Make Byzantium, Cairo, Baghdad, Aleppo, Jerusalem, Paris, Naples, Prague, and Krakow greater

[Obi Wan Asterix]

Seriously, its funny to see Byzantium the greatest city in the world in the 11th century, a shadow of its real self.

For me to enjoy this great mod, I have had to improve all the great cities.

I think its a Lemming-effect that modders tend to fall into when they feel that for game balance you need a civilization-like equality of cities.

My historical sense always gets frustrated by this, when I know that comparing to Western Europe the Eastern cities were great at the game's starting time.

Any comments on this?

[KaerMorhen]

agreed but Kiev should be on the 'list' as well, imo.

[Obi Wan Asterix]

agreed but Kiev should be on the 'list' as well, imo.

And Novgorod absolutelly!

Also Lwow should be there, as should another province between Thorn, Stetting and Magdeburg (for instance Torun, Poznan or Gdansk)

[Kula]

You' re right.

Few words about Poland.

From mid-ages till now there are two major provinces in my Country called :

- Malopolska ( translation : Little Poland ) with Krakow
- Wielkopolska ( Big Poland ) with first Polish Capital - Gniezno, then replaced by Poznan. I think it should be on the map.

Other major provinces

- Masovia wtih Płock , thats another one that should be on the map
- Pomorze with Stetin ( Szczecin )
- Pomorze Gdańskie with Danzig ( Gdansk )
- Silesia with Breslau ( Wrocław )

If modders are interested, I can write more about those "lost" provinces.

ps. There were no gold mines near Kraków. There was one of the biggest salt mines called - Wieliczka, in 14th century , one-third of Polish Crown income was from that mine. It is really big .

http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kopalnia_soli_w_Wieliczce

[Smarmy]

While it is sad, (I'm a fan of Rome), it's for the sake of balance. You would have to include all capitals on that list, because it would take many many turns to 'catch up' to other factions with great cities. To make Paris a greater city than London in this instance is would be abnormal. Atleast, if not London, then Caen.
In general, however, I agree that these factions, and the others, need to be made greater. Their starting economies need a boost as the first 100 turns of play can be rather boring. Though it is infinitely more rewarding when you reach turn 400 and you have a great empire that is truly yours.

[Fargham]

I agree whole heartedly with this, especially Constantinople. Given the vice that is forced upon the Byz at the start of the game, they really need to be bolstered by the city not falling so easily to any random army of spearmen!

I don't see the balance in the case of the Constantinople - I can't remember any game where the city wasn't lost within 30 turns of the game's start, unless I was defending it! Even then, sometimes I'd end up bunkering down on an island - only because the computer was usually too dumb to come finish me off. I'm not sure what kind of balance that is supposed to be showing, unless its the complete lack of it.

[Phil Stanbridge]

Okay we know it is historically inaccurate as it stands, but this is for play balance. Rather than giving the capitals a head start just increase the garrison.

[Irishmafia2020]

I agree whole heartedly with this, especially Constantinople. Given the vice that is forced upon the Byz at the start of the game, they really need to be bolstered by the city not falling so easily to any random army of spearmen!

I don't see the balance in the case of the Constantinople - I can't remember any game where the city wasn't lost within 30 turns of the game's start, unless I was defending it! Even then, sometimes I'd end up bunkering down on an island - only because the computer was usually too dumb to come finish me off. I'm not sure what kind of balance that is supposed to be showing, unless its the complete lack of it.

The simple solution would be to give Byzantium a couple of extra provinces. In my past two games as Muslim factions, I have left my homeland and migrated to a different area, and given at least some of my lands to the Byzantines... By about turn 50 they are the strongest world power. Rather than give them your own provinces, I suggest that you simply give the Byzantines several extra provinces by editing the Desc_strat file (you can place a BYZ army in an empty rebel settlement to give them de facto control of it) as that will dramatically increase their economy, and they will appear to be a power of historical consequence - attacking Italy, the Balkans, and N. Africa... To figure out how to place Byz armies or characters in the desc_strat file, use the show_cursorstat command in medieval shell, and then change the coordinates in desc_strat... Remember to remove the rebel forces from the same coordinate! In that way you can add provinces to any or all factions in the game.

[Kanaric]

Given the choice of having a game that historically replays the brief importance of various nations on the world stage accurately or provides an unexpected challenge with each new game, I'll take the later.

Said by a true player of CA games. Shows that you dont know much about gameplay. People need to play Europa Universalis and see past the age old lie that historical accuracy somehow isn't fun.

They should do this, if its to be an accurate mod it needs to be done. It will balance out on its own, one accurate city for certain nations will not break the game.

I can't remember any game where the city wasn't lost within 30 turns of the game's start,

Same here, so much for "balance".

EB and RTR are both historical accurate mods for RTW, both are balanced and good mods. Dont listen to these people that say that accuracy < uneducated opinions.

[headsh0ts]

I'd love to see the changes suggested. As long as the AI could attack and defend accordingly.

Like any other changes that seem to have been done for this mod in the past months - someone just needs to make it and show everyone how good it is.

[Fargham]

I'm not advocating anything drastic, I simply want the city to be a bit tougher than it is. Add in a few extra buildings at the start of the game - make the city huge, and that would be enough. Yes, I know I can do this with cheating, I know I can personally do it with modification - the point being that to most players who cannot mod, they are simply going to get wiped out in a few turns as the Byzantines.
Now, before you start getting silly about Nationalistic fervor, I'm from the US, and I'm Catholic - so thats 2 strikes against. I simply would like to see some of the 'historically accurate' diplomacy modifications done to this module, balanced a bit by creating some historically accurate worth to the city.

@Ivniciix - Have you looked at the modifications to the diplomacy files for TLR? I don't think you have. There are a lot of *gasp* modificiations that make the game more historically accurate, and spice the game up a bit. Sicily and Rum, and later Venice and all of the Catholics eventually have bad relations with Byz, that aren't normally there or to that degree in Vanilla. So my point still stands - to balance out how badly the Byz get crushed, something needs to be done.

[Hrimfar]

oups! wrong thread

[Kula]

Hmm, I'm not sugesting it from national reasons.

I love this mode because it's very realistic. The disscusion about provinces, cities etc. is very interesting. I wrote about Poland because I live here nad I think my knowlegde is really deep ( I'm a lawyer, first two years of studies is a history). It' is not my porpouse to strenghten Poland, you can give me one city in the map and I would be happy. It's about creating an empire not starting with one. I would like to see in this disscusion people from other countries showing thier opinion. I wanted to show you that "Wielkopolska" was/is a major polish province. I wil give you some history backround

Poland was created and build by tribe called - the Poles, the center of their land was in Wielkopolska, they invaded and occupied Malopolska. Wielkopolska is a "cradle" of Poland. That's all . I have my historical atlas before me, "Europe in XI century" Two biggest Polish cities - Kraków, and Gniezno.

Byzantium, it's a problem , when I play , in 100 years they become a biggest power in the world, for me their starting position is realy good. We should find some balance. Constantinopole, should have 25 000 pop, but we must remeber about giantic corruption, the weaknes of Imperator's power. Now playing byz is reaaly simple, get your troops and fight. We want to give them more and bigger cities which I think would be historically accurate. But give them their problems. Focus their first steps on rebulding economically and millitary. Put some rebels on the roads. Riots in the cities. Make byz weak. Create the situtation in wich no one can attack them , and byz is so weak that that can't attack too.

[Banjeeboy]

The Byzanties got a really bad position as it is now, stuck between muslim jihads, and expanding catholic factions, with very very slim chances of getting alliances.
However, this is a pretty accurate historic depiction of their real situation, too bad they can´t hang on to Constantinople for more than a few turns.
Perhaps improving the size, the walls, and adding some towers would change things... I'll try it myself, and see if it makes a change.

[Irishmafia2020]

I still say that the only thing that needs to be done to improve the Byz position is to give them a few extra provinces... Give them Crete, Famagusta, and the two cities on the Crimea and the watch them expand dramatically into the Balkans and black sea area. In my games they are always a major power - until I take them out that is! The real problem that I have observed is that France inevitably collapses within the first 100 turns....

[Smarmy]

France, yes. In every game I've ever played for any mod, France collapses. Swallowed up by his neighbors. The AI doesn't seem to handle a 4 side front well.