Ultimate AI - Feedback and Discussion *UPDATE 1.6*

[GrandViZ]

I will release an update on the campaign AI / diplomacy file, that will make it easier to achieve peace, and reduce the duration of wars.

@Borluc
The (battle) AI at defense is not passive at all! I have tested this many times and not once I had such a behavior, as you describe above.

[Quark]

GrandViz
I have used your Ai in Sicialn Vespers and it apperas that a faction can be on crusade, but not at war, so cannot attack the target.

[Borluc]

I will release an update on the campaign AI / diplomacy file, that will make it easier to achieve peace, and reduce the duration of wars.

@Borluc
The (battle) AI at defense is not passive at all! I have tested this many times and not once I had such a behavior, as you describe above.

When I attack with missile weapons (especially ballistas) and the AI has none, they just stand there. I've downloaded the battle tactics of another mod and the results have been better. Out of respect, I'll keep the name to myself(if you want I can tell you which).

On a positive note...
Sicily
med. campaign/hard battle

The Turks have turned on Egypt and have almost wiped them out after the Byzantines secured their position in asia minor early on. I guess the Turks only saw one avenue of expansion.

EDIT - Ohh, why can I have dismounted norman knights but not mounted at castle level tech? That doesn't seem to make sense.

p.s. GrandVis I am more than willing to work with you to try to figure out the problem if you say it shouldn't be there. My battle is set to hard, but that shouldn't have anything to do with tactics. So far the tactics have been somewhat weak in battles with your AI. Btw I am still using your unit stats. I only changed the battle ai for more of a challenge.

[GrandViZ]

GrandViz
I have used your Ai in Sicialn Vespers and it apperas that a faction can be on crusade, but not at war, so cannot attack the target.

This can happen, if the crusading faction signs a peace with the crusades target. Sadly, there is no way to avoid such a behavior, you can't ask or check for crusades in the campaign AI file.

When I attack with missile weapons (especially ballistas) ...

Hm, I was referring to ranged infantry units, but I don't see, how artillery units should make a difference. As I said before, I have not once encountered a passive defense by the AI.

Maybe you can describe the setup of the battle, e.g. units on your and on the AI's side, map etc. Your help is appreciated.

In regard to Norman Knights, this is due to balance reasons.

[blackspawn]

The only complaint I have is the idle AI when they are defending. They just stand around and do nothing... absolutely nothing. I once pummeled an AI army with ballistas for 10 minutes without them even moving. When I re-positioned to get a better angle, I ran into a group of hiding spearmen. They just stood there and took point blank ballista hits. When they routed, they recovered and just returned to their ambush point to get wiped out. I know other mods have corrected this so maybe you could tweak that.

I've also experienced this with a partially hidden army of rebels, where I pumped them full of arrows (~70% casualties on their side). After that I charged and found a group of hidden spearmen (which promptly charged my troops but by then it was too late...). I'm playing on VH/VH and in this particular battle my troops where on higher ground than the rebels (maybe thats the reason why they didn't charge? uphill battle?). I had my usal group of 4 peasant archers + 4 levy spearmen + 1 family member. The rebels had 3 spearmen + 2 town militia + 1 or 2 crossbows and a unit of english heavy cavalry as the general.

Also when on siege, I've noticed that if I break through a wall and then drop the ram, the defending army retreats to the town square (or to a street leading into it) which is fine I think (narrow street easy to defend). However if I don't drop the ram or pick it up again, the AI just sends its troops to stand behind the wall, which makes them a big fat target for direct arrow fire... and if they sally they get hit on both sides by my 2 units of spearmen (routing very quickly). Normally I can do this procedure over and over again util the AI has 2 or 3 units left which them promptly retreats to the town square.

[GrandViZ]

Did it happen once, or is it a regular phenomenon? Because I have played a lot of custom and campaign battles, and I have difficulties to reproduce, what you describe.

[Quark]

GrandViz: Crusade issue
Used this before

<decision_entry>
<!--
if not our neighbour, and we have any settlements, and we are at war, and they are not a trusted allies enemy, use defaults + want peace
-->
<min_entry num_settlements="1" stance="AtWar" target_religion="catholic" target_religion="orthodox"/>
<max_entry is_neighbour="false" trusted_ally_enemy="false" target_religion="catholic" target_religion="orthodox" enemy_excommunicated="false"/>
<faction_attitude want_peace="true"/>
</decision_entry>

But to honest not really sure how to apply to your new Ai:hmmm:. Help apreciated.

Edit: Just checked UAi 1.6 in SS and no crusade issue, so I am guessing descr_stat, are ai_labels meant to be followed by a space, ie catholic<space>.

[blackspawn]

Did it happen once, or is it a regular phenomenon? Because I have played a lot of custom and campaign battles, and I have difficulties to reproduce, what you describe.

The thing with the rebels only happened one more time in a previous game when I attacked a french army (I think). They also had some units hidden, their army was made of 2 or 3 crossbows, ~4 sergeant spearmen, a mounted unit and a few others I don't recall (it was about half a stack). In that attack I also had higher ground (covered by trees) where I had peasant archers and spearmen on one side of their army. On the orther side (on the same plane field as the french army) I had 3 peasant archer units and 2 units of spearmen. I was able to totally deplete my arrows ammunition on the french units without a single counter-attack. When I later charged with my spearmen I again discovered (just like in the rebels situation) a group of units which where hidden in the trees. In this case the french army almost immediately routed after my initial charge.

The siege situation has been happening 90% of the time (been mostly rebel towns though, don't know if that makes a difference)

[GrandViZ]

The problem with the proposed entry condition is, that once a catholic faction is at war with a muslim faction, it will be an endless war, which IMO is much worse.

And no, there is no need for adding a <SPACE>. In UAI 1.6, ceasefires are not absolute, as I use a random function which is influenced by the number of enemies. The more enemies a faction has, the more it is willing to sign a ceasefire. Therefore the issue described above would be quite rare.

[blackspawn]

Just had another "stand your ground while being shot full of arrows" encounter... this time it was me against a venetian army. It was a night battle and again (like in all previous encounters where the idle AI happened) there was a hidden AI unit. The entire venetian army just stood there being shot at (all good it did... good for nothing peasant archers... I long for my longbowmen... lol) until all six of my units ran out of arrows. I charged, they routed same story.

In all these it seems the hidden unit is a common factor, that and the fact that it is me attacking. Has anybody seen this or is it just me?

Also, it may be chance but all my family members have been getting bad traits when coming of age... I haven't had one promising general (had one promising governor) in 3 generations. My first generation was very tended to, I made sure they got good traits and developed their command and chivalry rating, however the following 2 generations were one disappointment after another, the only good generals I've been able to get are adopted ones or that one super general I got by marring my princess to a milanese general who at 16 had 8 chivarly, full piety, 9 loyalty and 2 command stars short of being the perfect general...). Does UltimateAI mess with traits or are they just vanilla ones?

[uk_john]

I have armies just standing within bow shot getting cut to pieces without moving while waiting for the ram to do it's work. If they only have a ram they come right up to the gate to wait for the ram to finish it's business, not caring about the arrows.

[GrandViZ]

I have armies just standing within bow shot getting cut to pieces without moving while waiting for the ram to do it's work. If they only have a ram they come right up to the gate to wait for the ram to finish it's business, not caring about the arrows.

This should not happen , if you use my formation file! If you don't it is not my fault.

[Borluc]

Ok.. I'm still playing Sicily. Around turn 100 now. Medium Campaign/Hard Battle.

I've extended my reach into all of Greece and most of Asia minor. Spain has come back with avengence and is getting close to pushing the Moors out. Milan is gone. Egypt has been destroyed by the Turks. France is about to destroy Portugal which is fitting since Portugal pushed France out of several of its provinces early in the game.

My Norman Knights (all four units) are tearing into the flanks of Muslim armies everywhere. My merchant network is alive and running (otherwise I would be broke) and I have a somewhat stable income.

Now to the bugs/problems I've noticed.

-France sacked Rome after it mysteriously rebelled, and a few rounds later the Papal States declared a Crusade on Rome. France had already been excommunicated (in fact it almost always is despite there being like 10 Popes so far) Strange thing is, there was a huge Papal army just standing next to Rome the whole time. This leads me into my next observation.

-Inactive armies. There are quite a few. The Venice faction leader has been sitting on Venice bridge for at least 20 turns if not more. Papal army above. Russia seem inactive now as well. They have avenues of expansion and a couple of settlements with enough troops to take a recently rebelled town. The Turks and France do not have this problem, though many factions that expanded earlier are now very quiet.

-Islands seem to spell doom for nations. England has taken all of the British Isles and have several large armies, yet they apparently aren't able to build some ships so that they can expand. Again earlier this wasn't a problem. Factions used ships for transporting armies often. Now it rarely happens. The Byzantines are in the same situation. They have only 2-3 settlements left, one of which is the island west of Antioch. On that island they have like 3-4 full stacks and they weren't able to use them when it really would have mattered. Maybe its the priority set on ships is low. Too bad the AI is retarded or "stuck on island" could be a condition to build ships.

-Finally, the princesses are all stuck up! More specifically the majority now have 0 charm and "the Snob" titles. Some still have some charm.

The only files that I'm using that aren't yours are related to combat tactics only, not unit stats. Still, I can't really comment on the battles because of this. Campaign is all you.

Hope this latest feedback helps.

[uk_john]

This should not happen , if you use my formation file! If you don't it is not my fault.

Installed your 1.6 in SS 5.0, so we'll see now.... !!!

[Smarmy]

To the guy above the guy above me:
Too lazy to hit back.. heh.. anyway..

Princess's being snobby is usually because they've never left their birth cities, you don't notice them "grow up" and they fester in the lap of luxury becoming banes on your family. If they're out making agreements and traveling the land they tend to be more charming, seeing the common man where he lives and doing an allbeit haphazard job as diplomats. (I usually don't need or want princess's, I have diplomats for a reason, so I just load all of a generation's daughters onto a boat and send em out to sea. Get more sons that way, too.)

Inactive armies? I can atleast debunk one of the things you mentioned, that army sitting on the bridge to Venice. That's part of the AI's strategy, it's making use of their capital cities' defensive position. A bridge battle is much more favorable than a city wall battle.

Island prison factions?
I have a guess as to why that is, they feel threatened, their protocol for recruitment slams into high-gear for land armies as they are being destroyed. Ships are rather useless in that situation, and sadly in the case of Byzantium with Cyprus and/or Rhodes, as those are both castles he favors them more for unit recruitment. More than likely those are going to be the only castles he's left with in such a situation, and it's 'smarter' to recruit professional soldiers from a castle.

Now, It is also my assumption that he does not attack with those stacks, because he feels threatened from everywhere. An island doesn't have to watch out for one general direction, any enemy could land from anywhere to try and take his island, so I guess couple that with the rest of it and..

As well, he probably doesn't have any money.. but anyway.
Eh edit for wrong thread, brain is still booting up.
Not too big a problem though, Byzantium is really the only one that happens to.
I've got Egypt invading Crete, Rhodes, etc, naval invasions are working.

[nikolai1962]

Ok.. I'm still playing Sicily. Around turn 100 now. Medium Campaign/Hard Battle.

-Inactive armies. There are quite a few. The Venice faction leader has been sitting on Venice bridge for at least 20 turns if not more. Papal army above. Russia seem inactive now as well. They have avenues of expansion and a couple of settlements with enough troops to take a recently rebelled town. The Turks and France do not have this problem, though many factions that expanded earlier are now very quiet.

-Islands seem to spell doom for nations. England has taken all of the British Isles and have several large armies, yet they apparently aren't able to build some ships so that they can expand. Again earlier this wasn't a problem. Factions used ships for transporting armies often. Now it rarely happens. The Byzantines are in the same situation. They have only 2-3 settlements left, one of which is the island west of Antioch. On that island they have like 3-4 full stacks and they weren't able to use them when it really would have mattered. Maybe its the priority set on ships is low. Too bad the AI is retarded or "stuck on island" could be a condition to build ships.

The inactive armies thing is down to AI stacks having path-finding problems and getting stuck. Islands are similar in that there are specific region to region paths for naval landings and cyprus doesn't have any on the vanilla map. I don't think Rhodes has any outgoing ones either; there's a path crete->rhodes but it doesn't seem to work both ways.

[nikolai1962]

I will release an update on the campaign AI / diplomacy file, that will make it easier to achieve peace, and reduce the duration of wars.

Cool mod, I've been using your diplomacy AI in my own modding and it's a big improvement over vanilla imo.

I was going to suggest what you mentioned above as a possible improvement. Currently when an AI gets into a war they carry on blindly with it (same in vanilla). If they are winning this means they continue to expand in what is often a silly looking direction. I was thinking if the AI was set to like short wars and started looking for a ceasefire after x turns of being at war it would both feel more realistic and the AI would end up expanding more evenly.

One of the things the AI does is push all its armies in the direction of the faction it is at war with. This leaves it wide open in its regions on the opposite side from the frontline, especially if it is a long war expanding far away from its centre. Regular ceasefires might help with this i think.

Another thing i was wondering was if it was possible for a) the AI to be much more reluctant to start a second war when it is already in one even if it is very strong and b) more keen on avoiding ex-communication, except maybe when it was very strong.

[uk_john]

Cool mod, I've been using your diplomacy AI in my own modding and it's a big improvement over vanilla imo.

I was going to suggest what you mentioned above as a possible improvement. Currently when an AI gets into a war they carry on blindly with it (same in vanilla). If they are winning this means they continue to expand in what is often a silly looking direction. I was thinking if the AI was set to like short wars and started looking for a ceasefire after x turns of being at war it would both feel more realistic and the AI would end up expanding more evenly.

One of the things the AI does is push all its armies in the direction of the faction it is at war with. This leaves it wide open in its regions on the opposite side from the frontline, especially if it is a long war expanding far away from its centre. Regular ceasefires might help with this i think.

Another thing i was wondering was if it was possible for a) the AI to be much more reluctant to start a second war when it is already in one even if it is very strong and b) more keen on avoiding ex-communication, except maybe when it was very strong.

these are good ideas and should be looked at in my opinion too Nikola!

[GrandViZ]

There is no possibility to check when a war has started. Excommunication is hardcoded, and the way the peace agreements work in M2TW there is little I can do about it. I am working on an update, that will increase the odds for peace between factions of the same religion.

I am aware, that the AI is far from perfect in this game, but I can only work with the tools, that CA has provided - and those are very limited. And I find myself repeating the same explanations over and over again, therefore I suggest, that you first investigate, what commands the AI scripts offer, and see what is possible and what not.

[Dimitri_Harkov]

I will release an update on the campaign AI / diplomacy file, that will make it easier to achieve peace, and reduce the duration of wars.

Very good! I'm looking forward to this.

However, there is one other thing that is far worse: The garrisons are so small that late in the game the AI loses settlements because of rebellions on a regular basis. This does not happen with the vanilla AI (at least not in that extend). Is there a way to improve this?

Other than that, I have to thank you again for the (still) best AI pack around!
Keep up your good work!