Ultimate AI - Feedback and Discussion *UPDATE 1.6*

[Borluc]

When sieging I once had a German general surrounded but he managed to last long enough for reinforcements and I was beaten back. Kinda pissed me off actually hehe.

I've also lost my King when I charged once. He was old though.

Res, what settings are you playing on and do you still have the settlement tax on?

[GrandViZ]

Hi,

concerning the issue with pathfinding during sieges, I can assure you, that this happens with the vanilla engine and all other BAI mods I have tested as well! But as you pointed it out, it happens occasionally and there are some workarounds, that perform quite well. Borluc listed some of them in his post.

In regard to the catholic factions fighting each other, I don't see this as broken diplomacy. You have to understand, that this game by no means simulates diplomacy adequately, it is rather a game, where each faction follows the ultimate goal to conquer 45 provinces. If you disable the capability of the catholic nations to fight each other, then you artificially handicap the AI in its means to win the game, which results in less challenge to the human player. Fact is the human player will not restrict himself!

The tech-level of AI armies depends on the era, and due to my own tests, the AI fields quite balanced armies throughout the whole campaign. Furthermore due to restrictions in refreshment rates, there will be no all-elite-armies. High era units are activated by the Mongol invasion event, late era units by the Timurid invasion event, renaissance units are only available near the end of the campaign.

The tax script can be disabled by deleting all entries of this type:

monitor_event SettlementTurnStart FactionIsLocal
and I_TurnNumber > 0
and SettlementType castle
and SettlementBuildingExists = fortress
console_command add_money -500
end_monitor

Don't delete the line that states wait_monitors.

Generals in UAI and RC are strong. This is the way I like it.

Best regards
GrandViZ

[uk_john]

What I think could be happening (not necessarily with this mod!) is that modders like saying they are making a mod to make the game harder and the AI better, because all gamers want this game harder (I don't and many really don't!). So maybe, just maybe, they are making the player weaker in disguise? Hence what the AI can do, the player used tio be able to do too, and now they cannot as much?!

[Borluc]

Well I do want the game to be "harder" in that I have to outthink my opponent. I don't want the game to be harder in a way that forces me to bludgeon my enemies over and over and over again. The Latter only emphasises the AI's weakness and, on top of that, handicaps me so I am fighting an uphill battle against a much inferior opponent.

Playing as Denmark on VH/VH I am finding as my campaign goes on, my handicaps are just making the game unenjoyable. Early on, it wasn't as pronounced because I had few settlements. As my control expanded, I was unble to adequately defend my lands. Agressive AI put me at odds with new enemies before I had the chance to counter others.

I'm removing only the settlement tax on myself to start with. Maybe that will balance things out.

Couple of questions Grand Vis. First, do I need to start a new campaign after I delete the settlement tax? With testing it seems like the tax is still in my current game after deleting.

Next, do I leave this line in? "; keep script unfinised until last monitor termination" It is right above "wait_monitors"

[uk_john]

Borluc - I am with you. You have to keep much larger armies behind your lines now, making you always shoprt of cash to do anything, because you never know when an ally or neutral is going to land a fleet with an army somewhere. It seems now the AI will attack your city whatever the relationship if it looks good odds, and I still say why no one has really talked about the fact that once an ally, the AI can have troops in your territory without any diplomatic agreement (it is an option on the diplomatic page after all!) but if you place troops in there's they like you a lot less straight away!

[GrandViZ]

All lines starting with a semicolon ";" are comments, that document the code, but have no function.

I think changes to the campaign script might require a new campaign, I am not sure though.

[messenger42]

Hi GranViz!

Can I try your CAI and BAI 1.6 on SS 5.0, is it compatible since SS 5.0 is using kingdom.exe. for its mod

thanks

[idick]

First I would like to say thanks for taking the time to make such a great mod.

Second I would like to report two things, one I think is a bug and the other seems to be dumb AI.

I am playing as the English, unfortunately I can't remember the difficulty level I am playing at, sorry, and the French keep sieging me at Caen and Rennes. The fact that they are sieging me is not a problem but the amount of men that they are bringing to the fight is. I have a garrison of some 1200 troops at Caen and twice now the French have attacked me with somewhere between 400-600 troops. These are not elite troops either, I am only about 30 turns in, but Armored Sergeants, Peasant Crossbows and Mounted Sergeants. That is the dumb AI, why won't the French wait until they have at least an equal amount of troops to attack? The bug occurs during the siege.

When the French attempt to take my walls they attack with a ram, a ladder and a siege tower. They attack with all three at the same time and so far, this has happened twice, I burn the ram up and beat them back from the walls with my Levy Spearmen. This is where what I believe to be a bug occurs. If there are any troops left or the routed troops regroup they will walk, not run, back to the ladders and the siege tower, "pick" them up and walk back to their starting, deployment positions. However they do not walk fast it is almost like they are walking in sand because their feet seem to slide along the ground and they inch along at an extremely slow pace. Once they get there they just stand around and suffer the abuse from my castle arrows. If I zoom in and look at them they also are doing a lot of yelling that I can't understand. It is a constant din like "hah-hah-hah-hah" over and over again. At this point I usually sally forth and see them off. Another weird thing that occurs is that the cavalry that they bring along never moves, it just changes its formation from time to time and even when bring out my Levy Spearmen to chase the foe from the field they just stand around.

Don't know if this will help but I figure anything could help refine this most excellent mod.

Thanks

[GrandViZ]

@messenger
The AI pack should be 100% compatible if you make the changes, described in the installation.txt (contained in the zip-file).

@idick
First situation you describe happens occasionally, but should be an exception, if you observe the general AI behavior. I have no direct control over the size of the invasion force that the AI uses. However, I will investigate if this can be improved without hurting the overall AI performance (making it too passive).

Second situation occurs, when units get stuck in walls or gates etc. This again is a vanilla issue.

Third, UAI uses an era based recruitment system. High and late era units are not available early in the game!

[akagi28]

Is it possible to increase priority for the AI to attack missile units? The AI seems to attack them only if there are no cav or infantry left or if they have been routed. Allowing me to mow them down or weaken them while they are busy chasing/fighting my other units.

Also, is there a way to make the AI use ladder and towers more efficiently?
By this i mean instead of just one unit using them, once they are in place have maybe 2 or 3 unit use them. Right now the AI seems to keep the other units back and wait for the gates to be brought down before attacking when they can spread out across the ladders and towers + some waiting at the gates. Maybe this is inherent in the AI engine and nothing can be done.

[blackspawn]

I've been a lurker for a while now but decided to finally register so I could say how much I appreciate your work and how much better M2TW has become with your mod! Thanks!

Now for some feedback, I'm only a few turns into the game, playing th english, but here's what I've got so far:

1) The speed of the game/building time is perfect, I can finally develop the cities and field some armies without having to regret not waiting a little while longer for a more advance unit (ad nauseum).

2) Alliances hold very well, and catholic nations seem to be forming a superblock with some exceptions (france, scotland, denmark, HRE and Poland are the only ones isolated). However france atacked me about 5/6 turns ago and nobody has come to my aid (I'm alllied with portugal, spain, milan, sicily and denmark, all with very good relations except denmark with so-so). I even offered money and map info to milan with a 5 heart princess but I got turned down. I'm hoping that it's because france hasn't been excomungated yet... thats another problem.. eh eh I'm above average with the pope yet france still has 4 crosses, I guess I'll wait a couple of more turns

3) Finally I've noticed that france is trying to take caen and rennes with (up until now) very weak armies (superior in number and quality to the my garrisoned ones but weak compared to the army I have roaming around those to cities protecting the land. In the first siege I considered the fact that maybe the AI didn't knew I had an army near but imediately after I completely destroyed the french army trying to take rennes france attacked caen with an even smaller one than the one the used on rennes.

Maybe I'm being to demanding lol after all the game has its limits (AI-wise)


Anyway this mod brought me back to medieval, Kudos! GrandViz.

[akagi28]

I noticed in the beginning things are a bit slow from allies and the armies look small but as you progress and the AI builds up the armies are bigger. Allies will attack you enemies but they don't seem to "assist" you in anyway. I think this is a limitation in the AI engine and not the mod. Overall the AI is very active and once you get into an all out war, it can get ugly.

[GrandViZ]

If assistance from allies means, that they will attack common enemies together with an allied army, then I have to dissapoint you. The AI engine offers no means to achieve such a behavior - this is hardcoded!

[blackspawn]

If assistance from allies means, that they will attack common enemies together with an allied army, then I have to dissapoint you. The AI engine offers no means to achieve such a behavior - this is hardcoded!

By assistance I meant to say "declaring war against my enemies", not even my diplomat was able to get allied factions (with very good relations) to declare war on my enemy (in this case france). Now I have to admit I didn't offer much in compensation (though I did offer some money and map info, but was immediately denied) for a declaration of war and as I said France hasn't been excomungated yet so I'm going to give it a few more turns. In short consider this:

Situation: England and Portugal are allies with very good relations. France attacks England.
Question1: Is Portugal more inclined/receptive to go to war with France? (either by their own or by request from an english diplomat).
Question2: Do factors like being excomungated and/or allied with other nations, military power etc come into play when deciding if faction A should go to war against faction B?

[Smarmy]

@Blackspawn

I've poked my nose around those files often of to confidently say, yes, all those things play a part. As far as I can tell you can only change how the AI prioritizes, and peering through the else/if I'd say all those things factor in to the AI's decision making. Whether or not the faction is local (the player), papal relation, excommunication, relation, number of provinces, strength of military, strength of military on bordering front, of those things I'm certain. Other conditions could be number of enemies the target has, or how many it has, faction's religion, whether or not it's a 'shadow faction' (the starting rival? IE. Venice & Byzantium.)

It would be my guess that Portugal hasn't declared war on France because he's busy with the Moors, and the measure of the Moor threat might be greater than he's willing to risk for another war. (Perhaps if the Moors have plenty of alliances of their own, increasing the threat. Your own, and your allies, military strength is considered to increase when an alliance is formed. As is displayed on the diplomacy screen when you first make it.)

[blackspawn]

Thanks for the answer Smarmy, I guess that makes sense then (if you enter with all those factors then it's a reasonable smart decision for portugal and all my other allies letting me handle the french lol)

[akagi28]

will there be an update that would make the rebels a little bit more aggressive as well as the AI factions?

[uk_john]

Grandviz. I had a HRE (Allied) army that was nearby when I (as England) attacked a Milanese army (HRE enemy) and on the battle map it joined in and helped. It did not 'jump forward' with my army on the battle win (ie on the main map when the enemy army icon moves back a few places on the map), meaning on my next 'finishing' attack on the enemy it was just my army because the HRE army was now further away. On the next turn the HRE army moved away.

[uk_john]

What I don't like in MTW2 is that you could sit in your Castles and Cities and be attacked by Neutral countries and still have their allies getting madder at you, the pope getting madder at you and everyone who likes that nation that attacked you and likes the Pope now don't like you, and on and on and on. France refuses to have a ceasefire even though I have not attacked him for 9 turns, an yet, as France creates alliances so I hear how I am disliked more by this faction and that faction. Then I find myself attacked by a Milan or some other smaller nation out of the blue which creates another cascade of 'don't like you's' It is so frustrating especially when the Papal States get annoyed and you have been the most peaceful nation in Europe, just having to defend yourself when attacked! There should definitely be some recognition of who's the defender and who's the attacker, because I am thinking of going back to vanilla MTW2 to see if this is corrected that way!

[Smarmy]

That'd be worse, John. And the only way to deal with what you describe is get MANY allies of your own.. I experienced the same thing and made some political blunders.
I chose to stick it out with my main-man HRE, pope hated us both, and a bloc of allies built up against us. Had to save HRE from going under, now I've set him loose on Europe as a monster, having taken provinces back for him. Thing is, I'm safe now behind my beast, with Spain looking inviting, he's allied with that bloc anyway... sorta wish I'd gotten more friends though.

Still looking good, anyway. Not every faction hates me. A full stack of bronze/silver/gold chevron elites from the France->Milan war, take the 4 provinces in England I left behind from Scotland, then maybe take over Iberia to keep pace with my 'pet'. Only bad point I've had in the campaign so far is the endless hordes that Milan sent after me every other turn, thinkin' of editing out that money script.. or atleast toning it down.

But, in defense of the campaign AI, It's nice to be held accountable for my actions. The bloc against us is understandable, The Normans and the Empire, two behemoths expanding without fear of the other. Nice to have the bankroll of two countries, and only have to worry about one theater of war. And such is why I understand the 'fear' of the two monsters who've agreed to devour Europe together.