To fix bayonets or not to fix...

[MRY6]

...witty i know, so anyways. That's the question. There were times when muskets obviously were not fixed during battle and sometimes they were. Charges and field encounters in the open obviously were usually (at least it seems) with fixed bay. but were there times when having bayonets on the muskets would actually be a detriment? Maybe they would get in the line of sight or something? It seemed as if troops that were defending behind some protection a wall or something would not fix bayonets. Maybe it was to reload faster and easier as they passed the muskets back quickly without having to worry about sharp pointy things sticking them?

[Empress Meg]

Troops would not fix bayonets until ordered to do so. It was up to each commander to make this call. There are some nations that would fix them rather early, but this would cause reload times to be slower and the overall effect of the main weapon would be lost. The Russians however, were very keen on using cold steel rather then gunpowder.

Devoirs The Empress

[William the Bastard]

IIRC the earliest forms of Bayonet were attached by inserting them into the gun's barrel as opposed to attaching them to the side so you could shoot. This was definitely the method at the Boyne (1690) for William III's forces but I am not too sure when this stopped. I am guessing that it was around the next decade so it shouldn't be a feature in this game. Interestingly it was up until the Boyne that Pikes were still used to fend of cavalry and were superseded by bayonets. Again I doubt there wold be any need for pikemen in this game.

They have said that a command will be available to the gamer for his regiment to fire. Perhaps they could make one to attach Bayonets? Personally I think it would be unnecessary as you might as well have them attached to begin with as it makes less hassle for the programmers.

[Semper_Crecis]

I imagine that fixing the bayonet unnecessarily would negatively affect loading time (loading with a fixed bayonet on the Baker rifle often meant skinned knuckles), and would make the weapon more difficult to handle due to its altered point of balance, this in turn could well result in a loss of accuracy as poorly-trained troops tendency to level their muskets too low and wast their shots would be exaggerated by their weapons' front heaviness.

[Empress Meg]

Interestingly it was up until the Boyne that Pikes were still used to fend of cavalry and were superseded by bayonets. Again I doubt there wold be any need for pikemen in this game.

Actually, they could get away with pikemen very easily. There was a place left for the pike. Portuguese easants were being armed for war as late as the Nappleonic Wars with pikes because there were not enough firearms ot go around.

It was also common practice for certain speical "elite" soldiers to carry a short half pike into battle as a sign of rank and distinction. Those of you who have discovered the Sharpe series will understand what I am talking about to a certain degree.

Finally, the navies of the time employed a number of small arms. Some of which were cold steel, they infact had a version of a pike called a "boarding pike" sometimes that was used in battle when the ships would collide to repel woul-be boarders.

Devoirs The Empress

[micaelis13]

I can't imagine Empire: Total War without pikemen. How else can I form tercios with the mighty Spanish empire of the Habsburgs, reigning conquest throughout the world, new and old!

[Agent Provocateur]

I can't imagine Empire: Total War without pikemen. How else can I form tercios with the mighty Spanish empire of the Habsburgs, reigning conquest throughout the world, new and old!

By playing M2TW which covers the period of your intended megalomania. ETW is set a couple of hundred years later

[micaelis13]

By playing M2TW which covers the period of your intended megalomania. ETW is set a couple of hundred years later

When is the starting date exactly?

[schoenkoenig]

Well, I'd say bayonets ought to be fixed from the start. It'd just add an unnecessary level of complexity to have to fix them. After all, troops would do it automatically if it looked like close combat was at hand.

Also, mind you, the whole purpose of the socket bayonet was to not impede shooting and reloading, which is why it replaced the plug bayonet very quickly. By 1700, there were next to no plug bayonets left in Europe. . .

[cudakite]

I would rather have it as an option. A 'fix bayonet' button.

No bayonet = faster reload

fixed bayonet = better hand-to-hand combat.

[english tyrant]

couldn't they just put a button next to the special ability which says fix/detach bayonets?

[Woad-Warrier]

couldn't they just put a button next to the special ability which says fix/detach bayonets?

That would be best.

[TWoxy]

I can't imagine Empire: Total War without pikemen. How else can I form tercios with the mighty Spanish empire of the Habsburgs, reigning conquest throughout the world, new and old!

Or by playing the Renaissance: Total War mod.

[/advertising]

[Agent Provocateur]

Actually, they could get away with pikemen very easily. There was a place left for the pike. Portuguese easants were being armed for war as late as the Nappleonic Wars with pikes because there were not enough firearms ot go around.

It was also common practice for certain speical "elite" soldiers to carry a short half pike into battle as a sign of rank and distinction. Those of you who have discovered the Sharpe series will understand what I am talking about to a certain degree.

Finally, the navies of the time employed a number of small arms. Some of which were cold steel, they infact had a version of a pike called a "boarding pike" sometimes that was used in battle when the ships would collide to repel woul-be boarders.

Devoirs The Empress

Hmm... Portuguese peasants probably had to be issued with pikes because the Portuguese government couldn't afford to arm them with muskets.

The "elite" units tended to be NCOs in the first half of the 18th cent. who used themn to litterally align their men with them - like a big ruler.

Navies used a "boarding pike" but it was used as a spear to jab at the enemy and make some room to get acrosss to their decks. Thye never used them in drilled units, least of all on land.

I think any pike units should be blown off the face of the game if they appear. In fact, pike armed units should suffer an automatic 80% morale deterioration in the face of firearms simply to represent their realistation of the uselessness of their armament and frustration at the powers-that-be for issuing them in the first place. Reason enough for a popular uprising I think.

Back to the OP, fixing or not bayonets is something I think can be left out of the game mechanics. Just let the game assume they are always "on", otherwise you introduce a whole level of micro-management tediousness too far.

[Maréchal_Martin]

ACtually, Agent, I wonder if it'd add more balance to the battlefield, attaching bayonet would increase the attack rating against other infantry (especially against light infantry) without bayonets, and also increase the infantry attack rating against cavalry.

[Empress Meg]

Hmm... Portuguese peasants probably had to be issued with pikes because the Portuguese government couldn't afford to arm them with muskets.

Yes, that is what I had said. They did not have the firearms avaible to arm all of the militias they wanted to arm, so they issued whatever came to hand.

The "elite" units tended to be NCOs in the first half of the 18th cent. who used themn to litterally align their men with them - like a big ruler.

Correct, however, they could also be used as a weapon. This was rare. In any case, they were not full pikes but half pikes. Regardless of what they were used for, I was giving an example of them being in use even if they are not of the purely fighting class.

Navies used a "boarding pike" but it was used as a spear to jab at the enemy and make some room to get acrosss to their decks. Thye never used them in drilled units, least of all on land.

Men on ships were taught to use them in small arms practice, therefore they were drilled in their use of them. Great gun drill would and did recieve higher priority. I am not sure why we could not call a true pike a spear as well since it works under the same concept.

I think any pike units should be blown off the face of the game if they appear. In fact, pike armed units should suffer an automatic 80% morale deterioration in the face of firearms simply to represent their realistation of the uselessness of their armament and frustration at the powers-that-be for issuing them in the first place. Reason enough for a popular uprising I think.

I disagree. Pike-armed units should be fairly decent in the beginning of the game, if it does start as early as they say it will. I do agree by the end of the game's time period they should be very useless. The morale of the men should be effected not only by their weapon however, but rather by their lack of training.

Devoirs The Empress

[Agent Provocateur]

Men on ships were taught to use them in small arms practice, therefore they were drilled in their use of them. Great gun drill would and did recieve higher priority. I am not sure why we could not call a true pike a spear as well since it works under the same concept.

I disagree. Pike-armed units should be fairly decent in the beginning of the game, if it does start as early as they say it will. I do agree by the end of the game's time period they should be very useless. The morale of the men should be effected not only by their weapon however, but rather by their lack of training.

Devoirs The Empress

I agree that pike should be in and I was being a bit flippant. However, I still think that even in the early 1700s pike armed troops should be at a serious disadvantage compared to musket and bayonet armed troops. At least against "modern" armies. By then the basic design of the musket was established, pikes were only kept in because, till the bayonet, there was no other effective counter to cavalry. To accompany this, any pike armed units should be lower grade as in all armies the best weapons are issued to the best troops (whatever they say).

As for the naval pike, yes they got training, but their use in the chaotic conditions of a boarding on an 18th cent ship would not look like a formation of Swiss pike advancing.

[Hohenstaufen]

As far as i know sweden deployed pikemen in the start of 18th century....it should have been in limited numbers though.....

[Agent Provocateur]

As far as i know sweden deployed pikemen in the start of 18th century....it should have been in limited numbers though.....

But again. that's probably because of a lack of funds. The guy in the foreground clearly has a bayonet on his belt (alongside the sword you can see the end of it), why would you field pikemen otherwise? Clearly Sweden did, but I still think that if faced by troops like the one in the foreground they should be at a severe disadvantage.

[Hohenstaufen]

they should be at a severe disadvantage.

That's obvious