The Garrison Script

[SicilianVespers]

We would like to get some feedback about the garrison script.

The current garrison script really has three main functions.

1. To force the AI to garrison settlements.

2. To help the AI build bigger armies.

3. To generate AOR units as "Arriere-Ban" levies for the human player. These are the second line Feudal Levies, that are summoned by their lord.


With all this in mind, what have your campaign experience been like.


[EDIT]

The recommended difficulty setting for SV 2.5 are H- campaign, VH - battles.

[Taneda Santôka]

With all this in mind, what have your campaign experience been like.

To easy...
I'm still Late campaign with BtR, and they start with 4 Latinikon units ; I'm now in 1340 with all of Greece and all nearby little islands, and also 4 golden chevron elite tanks! I now love them, but cutting through those levies was really a piece of cake, true, I'm yet to fight a major war besides those sieges and some Jihading armies, but I'd suggest to had, in the middle of this peasantry, 2 then 4 "leading" units, maybe the local landlords, the governor's guard or an elite corporate militia, since right nw the garrison script is mostly bodybuilding my troops. Especially in Late and Renaissance, where everybody get's most of its toptier elite, adding either the above, or simply a medium militia, bourgeois volunteers, pikemen etc... BUT it DOES help the AI against itself, land swapping has been pretty much historical and also, back and forth, I love it, and it's a reason for me not to grow to fast, even if I know I could sreamroll Anatolia now...

[DaVinci]

Taneda, you say it is too easy, as Byz player with the current design in Late and Renaissance campaign, right? Btw., which difficulty you've chosen? You also make too much money you said already ... shall we make some byz units more expensive? The Latinkons for example? Should they start with less Latinkons than 4?

The question is also, if the human player shall get these g script troops as well, or only the AI?
And, shall they get upkeep costs?

Btw., key settlements have certain scripted garrison units, and not only the levied spears and archers.

Some more detail info would help to balance it ...

[Basileios]

You also make too much money you said already ... shall we make some byz units more expensive?

I had a similar idea during my vacation, but I don't think that'll help much! A reason maybe that the Byzantines are too well-off for that periode! In fact Konstantinople is by far too developed. During its sack in 1204 many buildings were certainly destroyed and the city lost lots of population! When the city was taken by the Turks in 1453 only the old part of the city was still populated while most of its area was used for agriculture...
The state of development might be better for the EARLY periode but is by far too much for the LATE periode!

For the Byzantine units: Looking at the Byzantine threaties of the 10th and 11th century it seems, that Byzantium had few true light or true heavy line troops. That has apparantly changed during the Komnenian era, but it might be a good idea, to balance most Byzantine units rather to medium troops than to heavy or light ones. With more armour upgrades. (Say AC 3 or AC4 for line & light infantry, AC 5 for mounted & dismounted medium cavalry and upgrades up to AC 7).

The Trapezitai (or Prokoursatores) for example weren't light or unarmoured, but had - at least in field armies - the same armour as the line cavalry. Riptaristai (javelinmen) were supposed to be armoured in the same way as pikebearing Hoplitai (or probably more correctly: the Hoplitai as light as the Riptaristai... ) and most of the Psiloi (archers) will have come from the same pool of manpower as the rest of the infantry... -> most (if not all!) native troops were drawn from the class of the Stratiotai!
So I'd propose to make some of the actually light armoured troops - such as Psiloi, Toxotai, Trapezitai & Tzakones(spearmilitia ->macebearers) - heavier and more expensive and some of the heavier troops - Skoutatoi, Kontaratoi(Hoplitai) & Menavlatoi - less heavy but maybe more numerous...

[Taneda Santôka]

Yes, I play Byz in late campaign, on H/VH. I think having a good starting army is good, for player and AI alike, but the garrison script should be for AI only (I thought it was already so no?)
About money, I have Konstantinoupolis, Hadrianoupolis(castle), Tessalonika, Athinai, Corinth(castle), Mistra, Arta, Corfu, Negroponte, Chios, Rhodos, Candia and Nicosia(castle), the year is 1343 and i usually stick around 40000 florins, wich for me, is to much, so I give it to some banckrupt factions (Russia an Scotland), I have no war going on, Srb and Bulgar are my allies, and I have no eastern front, Europe is cut from Asia by my fleets, to let Ottomans get Jannisaries. I have big laterna fleets around the eastern med and two full stacks with 4 Latinikon, 4 Kontaratoi, 4 catapults/bombards, 2 HA, 2 kataphractoi, general and some varangoi, each. But still, a Jihading army came in front of Konst, not sieiging but cutting the city from its land/sea trade, and I lost 8000! That's good, but never really suffered from not trading anymore with Egypt/Mongols/IlKhanate
But i still think having some leading units in garrison is good, to add some challenge and it isnt unrealistic, seing localnobles/orelse rising to defend the local capital, as well as more proffesionnal militia for late game.
Tell e if you need more info.

[DaVinci]

But i still think having some leading units in garrison is good, to add some challenge and it isnt unrealistic, seing localnobles/orelse rising to defend the local capital, as well as more proffesionnal militia for late game.

If this approach will be added for any g script/settlements, then it is questionable, if the AI is able to expand, but probable for Late and Ren campaign not a real problem, as for the available medium, heavy and elite units in several settlements.

Your comments are helpful, thanks.

[SicilianVespers]

The Levy units are really outdated by Late and Renaissance, we should add some upgrades to keep them up to date. Right now they are just more experienced.

[Taneda Santôka]

Upgrading is a good idea, for now they are mostly free kils!

[Demokritos]

Well, you know my position on this issue from earlier posts. If I ever came round to make a mod like this, I would probably restrict the garrison script to raise, in the event of a siege, say, three units in ordinary settlements, six units in capitals and nine units in holy cities, and for AI factions only (not giving anything for free to the human player), and combine this with extra income for the AI factions (to raise, deploy and maintain proper troops), plus perhaps regular recruitment options for all parties, both human and AI, to raise these levies.

PS. One can make room for such levies in the unit roster by taking militia units as more properly equipped and trained troops, and the levies cheaper peasant counterparts of archers and spearmen, and making both types of unit (militia and levies) available in cities and castles. The difference between cities and castles when it comes to recruitment options could be applied to more advanced troops.

[SicilianVespers]

Well, you know my position on this issue from earlier posts. If I ever came round to make a mod like this, I would probably restrict the garrison script to raise, in the event of a siege, say, three units in ordinary settlements, six units in capitals and nine units in holy cities, and for AI factions only (not giving anything for free to the human player), and combine this with extra income for the AI factions (to raise, deploy and maintain proper troops), plus perhaps regular recruitment options for all parties, both human and AI, to raise these levies.

PS. One can make room for such levies in the unit roster by taking militia units as more properly equipped and trained troops, and the levies cheaper peasant counterparts of archers and spearmen, and making both types of unit (militia and levies) available in cities and castles. The difference between cities and castles when it comes to recruitment options could be applied to more advanced troops.

To be honest, this was the original plan with the script. We had a few requirements:

1. To spawn the garrison instantly (not in the next turn).
2. To cover every region.
3. To affect the AI factions only.

The only problem was that I couldn't get it to spawn instantly, and exclude the human player. It just won't work the way I have the script setup (I don't monitor for each faction, you would really be crying about lag if I did that )

So we were faced with two choices, spawn instantly & let the human player get free units, or spawn in the next turn which meant the script could be easily bypassed.

The odd thing about it, was that I could get it to work with Constantinople and Nicaea while testing, but when I applied it to every settlement, it just wouldn't work. It went back to spawning on the next turn.

[ivan_the_terrible]

I actually like that the human player is affected also - makes it seem rather fair (but not too easy as the units aren't very powerful).

I have a few suggestions though:
-Make the levies more powerful in the Late period (preferrably for AI factions only, otherwise it will be too easy for the player)
-Eventually introduce region-specific levies.

This actually brings me to another suggestion - AOR. Although you kind of have it already, it seems to me its currently more about limiting recruitment in foreign regions, rather than providing unique units to recruit. I appreciate that its a huge amount of work, but if you just do a little bit at a time with each release, it'll eventually build up.

Thanks.

[Gatto]

This script is certainly a very good and very historical idea. The only aspect I have to complain about is the size of such garrisons. For example if in the 1311 campaign Venetians decide to siege the Genoese settlement of Chios in a couple of turns they find the town completely full of levy spearmen and archers as if they were sieging Genoa itself. Chios was a relatively small settlement and was mainly settled by Greeks not by Genovesi so this mobilization is certanly excessive. In my opinion garrison size should depend mainly by town size, cultural/religious aligment with the nation's capital, (English defending a captured Paris from the French are obviusly not likely to find much support among the people...), and if possible by governor's traits.

Also it would be a good thing if levies looked different in northern Europe, Mediterranean and eastern Europe cities. By the way could you use Cavalleria Patriziale as bodyguard for Venetian and Genoese generals? As far as I know Repubbliche Marinare didn't possess knight-like cavalry at the time. Thanks in advance for any reply.

[SicilianVespers]

We are actually experimenting with an AI only script, and this will probably be included in the next release.

The new script will include cavalry, medium infantry, and regional mercs for diversity.

The AOR will also be expanded to makeup for the fact that the human player won't be getting free levies anymore.

@Gatto
I like the idea of Cavalleria Patriziale as Venetian bodyguards. Unfortunately, we have reached the 500 unit limit in the EDU, so we will have to get creative, and do a little cleanup before we can consider it.


[EDIT]

Personally, I also prefer the current Levy-Garrison script. As it has more of a Medieval feel to it. We will have to wait and see what comes out of testing.

[Aryleia]

The best solution in my opinion would be a garrison script which would give some units to AI and about 50% of those units to the player - regarding the importance of the settlement. I would not generate always a "full house" - especially if you plan to have a garrison script only for the AI. Otherwise it perhaps could become frustrating.

[SicilianVespers]

The next version of the garrison script is AI only. The garrisons have been trimmed back slightly, but they will also include some better units. Every settlement is still covered by the script, but it will not check the size, as this just lengthens the wait between turns. Of course, there are also special garrisons for certain settlements.

[Basileios]

I agree with Aryleia about the "full house". The script actually adds both six spear and archer levies per turn. If you don't have any siegecrafts at hand, you'll oppose at least 13 units before you even have the chance to attack the city/castle...
This forces of course the player to hurry up, but it might be less frustrating if there were less units as scripted garrisons! Say three in total and the first groupe to be added after the end of the turn - not instantly when a city is attacked!

[SicilianVespers]

I agree with Aryleia about the "full house". The script actually adds both six spear and archer levies per turn. If you don't have any siegecrafts at hand, you'll oppose at least 13 units before you even have the chance to attack the city/castle...
This forces of course the player to hurry up, but it might be less frustrating if there were less units as scripted garrisons! Say three in total and the first groupe to be added after the end of the turn - not instantly when a city is attacked!

I forgot to mention, they also won't be spawning instantly anymore. They will spawn at the beginning of the besieged factions turn.

[Basileios]

Great, that'll be much better! Any chance that the number of spawn levies will be scaled down?

[SicilianVespers]

It already has been scaled down, but we added cavalry and medium infantry, so it still won't be easy

The AOR system has also been expanded to make up for the garrison script only spawning AI units. But keep in mind this is still a WIP, and is still evolving.

[Basileios]

It already has been scaled down, but we added cavalry and medium infantry, so it still won't be easy

I guess so! But the AI will have trubble to take other AIs cities as well...