Criticism of Israel is NOT anti-semitism!

[pranicmegan]

I've noticed on these boards that some people attack other people whenever they criticize Israel. I find this to be extremely childish.

It would seem that it is all right to criticize ANY government on Earth EXCEPT Israel! WTF?

Politically Correct Bulldust and the application of 'anti-anti-semite' politically correct bulldust has run away with our minds. Seems no longer do we have the right to think negative thoughts about the government of Israel without some idiot branding us 'holocaust deniers' or 'anti-semite'!

'Holocaust deniers' .... to me seems to imply that you would actually deny the holocaust happened (might be just me and my interpretation of the word?) Yet I have seen people labeled that here on this forum for simply criticizing Israeli policy.

If there can be no fair and detailed criticism of Israeli policy then really that gives Israel more power to wield in the world than any other nation. It is absolutely ridiculous to assume that Israel can do no wrong, OR be criticized , simply because the Jews suffered through the attempted genocide that is called the holocaust. It is also interesting that it was even CALLED the holocaust instead of what it really was - an attempted genocide. According to the American Dictionary online, holocaust means: A sacrificial offering that is consumed entirely by flames. THAT gives me pause for thought.

It's time people woke up and realized that this anti-semitism bullcrap when criticising Israel is just an attempt to control their minds and thoughts. Anti-semitism means unfair, unrealistic, criticism of Jewish people and customs. It DOES NOT mean that reasonable and fair criticism of Israeli policy cannot be discussed. Seems that the label 'anti-semite' gets readily applied whenever there is fear. I have seen this label applied to quite a few people in the world, and I am yet to agree that any one of them is an anti-semite. Anti-semite means that you do not like, and demean, the Jewish people. The few people that I have seen have the anti-semite label applied to them were simply criticizing the GOVERNMENT of Israel and their policies. This does not an anti-semite make.

In fact it seems that the label anti-semite gets readily applied to political dissidents, or history dissidents. That is, anyone who does not agree with the 'official' version of either history or politics.

Lets keep the 'anti-semite' label for those to whom it really applies - that is, those who don't like Jewish people, or their customs. And lets not apply the label to discussion about Israeli politics. After all they are totally separate issues.

[Roy Batty]

Denial of the holocaust or holocaust denier as you put it, is another grossly overused term, usually used in conjunction with anti-semite. Simply debating the number of Jewish victims of the holocaust can have both labels thrust upon you.

Anyway, I'm not really comfortable talking about this subject, so I leave you with that.

[jankren]

Anyway, I'm not really comfortable talking about this subject, so I leave you with that.

Saying the 'wrong things' on subject like this can change your image in the eyes of others swiftly so beware.

[boofhead]

Saying the 'wrong things' on subject like this can change your image in the eyes of others swiftly so beware.

Who cares? Not me......

Here's my political beef of the day about Israel: Mossad routinely sneaks about and defies the governments of so-called allies. For example, the US and the always Israel-threatening New Zealand.

Israel is very rude, and indeed acts like a rogue nation in this regard.

Call me an anti-semite and I will laugh my arse off at you, and your image will change very swiftly in my eyes - so beware

[ThiudareiksGunthigg]

Denial of the holocaust or holocaust denier as you put it, is another grossly overused term, usually used in conjunction with anti-semite. Simply debating the number of Jewish victims of the holocaust can have both labels thrust upon you.

Holocaust denial doesn't simply mean denying that the Holocaust happened at all. If it did there would be virtually no Holocaust Deniers. Holocaust Denial includes all those who argue against the historical evidence of the nature and extent of the organised and systematic killing of large numbers of Jews by the Nazis as part of their wider racial and social programs of mass murder.

Most Holocaust Deniers say they are "simply debating the number of Jewish victims". If you try to argue against the well documented information on how many Jews died, then you are a Holocaust Denier.

@pranicmegan - Yes, some supporters of certain (not all) political stances in Israel try to hide behind their Jewishness and tar all criticism of anything Israel does as "anti-Semitism". That is ridiculous and it actually makes many thousands of Jews into "anti-Semites".

[pranicmegan]

Holocaust denial doesn't simply mean denying that the Holocaust happened at all. If it did there would be virtually no Holocaust Deniers. Holocaust Denial includes all those who argue against the historical evidence of the nature and extent of the organised and systematic killing of large numbers of Jews by the Nazis as part of their wider racial and social programs of mass murder.

Most Holocaust Deniers say they are "simply debating the number of Jewish victims". If you try to argue against the well documented information on how many Jews died, then you are a Holocaust Denier.

Now see I truly don't understand this. Let me see, so certain historical events are simply not up for discussion? So, if someone finds some sort of new evidence, it simply cannot be looked at, or discussed otherwise you are a 'holocaust denier'?

Now I myself have not investigated any of these claims, so I cannot say whether their evidence is valid or not. But to me the main point here, is the fact that if you even DISCUSS what numbers, when, where, or whom, you are labeled a 'denier'. I find this utterly ridiculous.

[Kiljan Arslan]

Of couse it isn't anti semitism or for that matter jew hatred, now if you critisize Isreal and also say the Chronicles of the elders of zion is an excellent book on the other hand....

[Chaigidel]

personally I just think if you argue against israel you argue against the jewish people-- thats how I see it; and it would take alot to change my mind; if its even possible.

[ThiudareiksGunthigg]

personally I just think if you argue against israel you argue against the jewish people

There are Jews who argue against Israel.

And many people who throw around the "anti-Semitic" label think that if you criticise the Likud Party's policies you're an anti-Semite. By that weird definition about half of the Jewish population of Israel are "anti-Semtic"

thats how I see it; and it would take alot to change my mind; if its even possible.

There are quite a few Jews who are "against the Jewish people" then.

[Primvs Sextvs Loverlord]

personally I just think if you argue against israel you argue against the jewish people-- thats how I see it; and it would take alot to change my mind; if its even possible.

Then perhaps you should take a trip outside fairyland, too. The thing is that, and I'm sure most Israelis will agree with me on this, not ALL things that Israel (or the Israeli government) does are worthy of merit, positive or benevolent. Many Jews recognize this fact and, when something questionable occurs, they question their leadership via a democratic process. Your arguments falls on it's face because of the mere fact that some very proud Jews even sometimes question the actions of the Israeli state. Take the Lebanon war inquiry, for example.

Your way of thinking on this matter presents a common but potentially dangerous problem. It's called stereotyping, grouping up people together. For example, when the IDF destroyed most of southern Lebanon and failed to achieve anything substantial in the war, I WILL question the motives and effectiveness of the war but that doesn't mean I'm a holocaust denier or Jew-hater.

That is where moderation, fairness and neutrality come into play.

Coming back to the erroneous way of thinking, I would say that at the very least, it's a very narrow and dictatorial methodology. It's the sort of perspective that causes problems but solves none. It's like saying, "if you didn't support America for the past decade, you hate America/Americans".

[Chaigidel]

yes I know--- I have read the arguements, It all rests on right of return to me and how its recognized in international law-- in my mind the jewish people are identified with Israel under international law.(just because of the right of return)

[ThiudareiksGunthigg]

yes I know--- I have read the arguements, It all rests on right of return to me and how its recognized in international law

Then there are the Jews who say Israel shouldn't be established until the Messiah comes.

And you've forgotten to mention the use of "anti-Semitic" to refer to any kind of criticism of anything the Israeli Government ever does. That's totally ridiculous.

[Chaigidel]

well I admit that it is used as a propaganda tactic by the israeli govt--- but I will always identify all jews with Israel.

and yes according to many on both sides ( left and right) dont think Israel had the right to establish itself for both religious and political reasons.

even if they do not recognize it the governments of most all nations do recognize the fact that jewish=israeli as soon as the jewish person says so; convert or otherwise you have the right if you are a jew in any way.

[removeduser_487563287433]

Of course criticising Israel isn't anti-semitism. If Chagdiel chooses to associate all Jews with Israel, just ignore him. He is not the Emperor of all Jews.

[Chaigidel]

america doesnt have a right of return for a religious group--- none of you can dispute the fact of the right of return; doesnt matter how many jews dont like it; its recognized by international law.

jews=israel whether they like it or not. *(ferrets any idea how I can become the emperor of all jews?)

[boofhead]

america doesnt have a right of return for a religious group--- none of you can dispute the fact of the right of return; doesnt matter how many jews dont like it; its recognized by international law.

jews=israel whether they like it or not. *(ferrets any idea how I can become the emperor of all jews?)

Sounds kind of racist/discriminatory against non-Jewish Israelis. You know - people like muslims and Christians for example. Their own nation does not include them? Are they squatters?

From wiki

Just over three quarters, or 76.1%, of the population are Jews from a diversity of Jewish backgrounds. Approximately sixty-eight percent of Israeli Jews are Israeli-born, twenty-two percent are immigrants from Europe and the Americas, and ten percent are immigrants from Asia and Africa (including the Arab world).[177] The religious affiliation of Israeli Jews varies widely: eight percent define themselves as "Haredi Jews" and twenty percent consider themselves "secular Jews". The majority of Israeli Jews, fifty-five percent, say they are "traditional," The remaining seventeen percent define themselves as Orthodox Jews.[178]

Making up 16.2% of the population, Muslims constitute Israel's largest religious minority. Israeli Arabs, who comprise 19.8% of the population, contribute significantly to that figure as over four fifths (82.6%) of them are Muslim. Of the remaining Israeli Arabs, 8.8% are Christian and 8.4% are Druze.[179] Members of many other religious groups, including Buddhists and Hindus, maintain a presence in Israel, albeit in small numbers.

[removeduser_487563287433]

america doesnt have a right of return for a religious group--- none of you can dispute the fact of the right of return; doesnt matter how many jews dont like it; its recognized by international law.

jews=israel whether they like it or not. *(ferrets any idea how I can become the emperor of all jews?)

If I knew I already would have become it myself.

[Chaigidel]

it does seem that way; its almost ironic; but it is a fact--- Israel's law about the right of return of JEWS ONLY -- is a internationally recognized fact unlike any other law for any other nation--- making israel the only nation on earth that could be identified by its jewish nature.-- no matter what as long as right of return exists -- the jews =israel in the eyes of the law.-- I know there are all kinds of other people than jews in Israel; yet they do not receive right of return, nor would they ever be offered it; yet I could convert to judaism, and then move to israel, and immediately gain citizenship in israel; even if I had committed a crime.

[boofhead]

So are non-Jewish Israelis considered "Israelis" by Jewish Israelis? Welcomed with open arms, as brothers?

[Chaigidel]

I would think so --- I dont think that the jews see it as a "discriminatory law"; nor do I think many of them dwell on it overmuch; its just the real hinge so to speak of my saying the jewish people are identified as Israel; because only jews are offered "right of return"-- I dont think this makes them racist or anything; but I cant say its entirely right either; even being a non jew in israel I dont think makes you less Israeli so to speak-- but your still not offered a free pass home from any country in the world.

until the right of return is abolished you must consider Israel as the jewish people; and you cannot attack one without the other; they are inseperable by design.