Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori

[Scar Face]

Translated as: "It is sweet and seemly to die for one's country."

What do you think of this quote? I know many people now a days are pacifists, and that exists on this board as well. For some reason they think that fighting and dieing is unfortunate and tragic. While it is sad when someone dies in War, or any circumstance really, I must say that is my preferred way to go. That is, fighting for my country and my beliefs. What other higher honor is there? It seems that modern society forgets this quote and its meaning. What do you think of it?

Discuss.

[Denny Crane!]

A staggeringly tall pyramid of piffle, is that quote and everything it stands for.

There are many things in which I can imagine fighting for and possibly dying for. A concept isn't one of them especially when the embodiement of that concept ie. the government might have machieveliian or nefarious aims.

[removeduser_487563287433]

Oh man GCSE English stella flashback.

[Ummagumma]

I am quite a pacifist (now at least) and I also sometimes have issues in thinking that nationality is some great power - after all, I'm just a human, and my parents came from a particular region on the rock we all inhabit.

Having said that, I think it is a sweet and seemly thing to die for one's loved ones - family and friends - but only if there was no other option. I guess as most of those are from the same nation, I agree by default, but likewise I have many friends and some relatives from all over the planet. Could I draw a line? I very much hope I never have to find out.

[Trax]

Wilfred Owen

Dulce Et Decorum Est

Bent double, like old beggars under sacks,
Knock-kneed, coughing like hags, we cursed through sludge,
Till on the haunting flares we turned our backs
And towards our distant rest began to trudge.
Men marched asleep. Many had lost their boots
But limped on, blood-shod. All went lame; all blind;
Drunk with fatigue; deaf even to the hoots
Of disappointed shells that dropped behind.

GAS! Gas! Quick, boys!-- An ecstasy of fumbling,
Fitting the clumsy helmets just in time;
But someone still was yelling out and stumbling
And floundering like a man in fire or lime.--
Dim, through the misty panes and thick green light
As under a green sea, I saw him drowning.

In all my dreams, before my helpless sight,
He plunges at me, guttering, choking, drowning.

If in some smothering dreams you too could pace
Behind the wagon that we flung him in,
And watch the white eyes writhing in his face,
His hanging face, like a devil's sick of sin;
If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood
Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs,
Obscene as cancer, bitter as the cud
Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues,--
My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old Lie: Dulce et decorum est
Pro patria mori.

[Scar Face]

A staggeringly tall pyramid of piffle, is that quote and everything it stands for.

There are many things in which I can imagine fighting for and possibly dying for. A concept isn't one of them especially when the embodiement of that concept ie. the government might have machieveliian or nefarious aims.

I agree to an extent. I am hardly for rushing off to war every time your nation does it, obviously there must be a valid reason. You're defending your nation from aggression, defending your beliefs and so on. Those in my mind are valid reasons, it is an honorable cause to die for if you die in that way. Clearly it is not honorable to die in a frivolous campaign that serves no purpose for your people.

I am quite a pacifist (now at least) and I also sometimes have issues in thinking that nationality is some great power - after all, I'm just a human, and my parents came from a particular region on the rock we all inhabit.

Having said that, I think it is a sweet and seemly thing to die for one's loved ones - family and friends - but only if there was no other option. I guess as most of those are from the same nation, I agree by default, but likewise I have many friends and some relatives from all over the planet. Could I draw a line? I very much hope I never have to find out.

Well yeah, thats what I take from the quote to be honest. I don't think its getting at its good to die for your state, straight up. I don't think its claiming its sweet and seemingly just to die for them, whatever the cause may be. Rather I think the quote means it is sweet and seemly to die for your people, to defend your nation and your ideals. This is how I take it, really quotes are up to personal interpretation.

The old Lie: Dulce et decorum est Pro patria mori.

I think I have read that before. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't that written during World War One and was released shortly after? If so, I agree with the author. Because as I already said, I think the quote means it is sweet and seemly to die in the defense of your country, in the defense of your peoples freedoms and ideals. World War One was hardly about that. It was a pointless and costly war, that only lead to yet another pointless and costly war.

I agree completely. Anyone that says otherwise isn't just a pacifist, but a coward.

People can say "I believe in free speech", but if it's taken away, and they don't fight to get it back, then what are they? Cowards, plain and simple. If you aren't prepared to fight for what you believe, for your country, and for those you love, than you are nothing but a coward. There is an old saying:

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." ~ Edmund Burke.

Sums it all up, really.

Exactly. Part of the reason I made this thread was because of another thread in the Ethos. Asking if you would die for your God. Only me and a handful of others said yes. Its absolutely detestable that someone wouldn't fight for what they believed in, hell it is absolutely detestable that someone wouldn't fight to defend someones right to believe in it, regardless if they agreed with it or not.

[Denny Crane!]

I agree to an extent. I am hardly for rushing off to war every time your nation does it, obviously there must be a valid reason. You're defending your nation from aggression, defending your beliefs and so on. Those in my mind are valid reasons, it is an honorable cause to die for if you die in that way. Clearly it is not honorable to die in a frivolous campaign that serves no purpose for your people.

I wouldn't defend my beliefs, they aren't so vulnerable. I would possibly fight for liberty or the security of my friends or family.

I do not like it being lumped into the phrase "my nation" though as I have little in common with many folk and the people I do, well I can find that in equal proportions throughout many countries. If perhaps the aims coincide, that I must fight as part of nation as that is the only way to guaruntee mine and the others I care about, the security of liberty and freedom then I would join the "country" or "coalition" or whatever. Lets not confuse it with some idealistic Junk though. I don't know people in Kent and I don't risk my life for them, my aims merely temporarily coincide and I would join with them out of neccessity.

I don't understand Patriotism

[Spurius]

I wouldn't defend my beliefs, they aren't so vulnerable. I would possibly fight for liberty or the security of my friends or family.

Patria originally meant just that, not the abstract nation-state or empire BS. Soon as that started to fade, the Empire was pretty much finished. You don't die for faraway Rome.

[ThiudareiksGunthigg]

I think I have read that before. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't that written during World War One and was released shortly after? If so, I agree with the author. Because as I already said, I think the quote means it is sweet and seemly to die in the defense of your country, in the defense of your peoples freedoms and ideals. World War One was hardly about that. It was a pointless and costly war, that only lead to yet another pointless and costly war.

I suspect Trax posted it because of what Wilfred Owen was saying in that poem - that "the old lie" is often used to justify "sacrifice" in pointless and costly wars. Look at how Bush and Co. sell the Iraq War as being, somehow, about "defending America from terrorists". It's nothing of the sort, but there are people here who actually buy that kind of lie.

As did many of the blokes who Wilfred Owen saw killed around him in the trenches. Unfortunately he never lived to go home and teach more people about how "old lie" gets misused - he was shot and killed exactly a week before the end of the First World War.

[Medicus]

Translated as: "It is sweet and seemly to die for one's country."

What do you think of this quote? I know many people now a days are pacifists, and that exists on this board as well. For some reason they think that fighting and dieing is unfortunate and tragic. While it is sad when someone dies in War, or any circumstance really, I must say that is my preferred way to go. That is, fighting for my country and my beliefs. What other higher honor is there? It seems that modern society forgets this quote and its meaning. What do you think of it?

Discuss.

I agree completely. Anyone that says otherwise isn't just a pacifist, but a coward.

People can say "I believe in free speech", but if it's taken away, and they don't fight to get it back, then what are they? Cowards, plain and simple. If you aren't prepared to fight for what you believe, for your country, and for those you love, than you are nothing but a coward. There is an old saying:

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." ~ Edmund Burke.

Sums it all up, really.

[Centurion-Lucius-Vorenus]

I agree completely. Anyone that says otherwise isn't just a pacifist, but a coward.

People can say "I believe in free speech", but if it's taken away, and they don't fight to get it back, then what are they? Cowards, plain and simple. If you aren't prepared to fight for what you believe, for your country, and for those you love, than you are nothing but a coward. There is an old saying:

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." ~ Edmund Burke.

Sums it all up, really.

Dying for your country is different from dying for Free speach.

[Medicus]

Dying for your country is different from dying for Free speach.

It's an example. People die for many reasons.

[Centurion-Lucius-Vorenus]

It's an example. People die for many reasons.

Most of them being things not worth dying for, dying for "Thier" country is the highest example.

[Sher Khan]

If I have a certain duty to my nation, such as taking up arms for it, I do it.

I don't expect to die, I don't bother thinking about it. If it happens, it happens. I take what precautions I can to help my survival, but there's only so much I can do to prolong the inevitable, short of running away and deserting. Which is not an option, as it defeats the goals I set out to achieve.

[Trax]

People can say "I believe in free speech", but if it's taken away, and they don't fight to get it back, then what are they? Cowards, plain and simple. If you aren't prepared to fight for what you believe, for your country, and for those you love, than you are nothing but a coward.

I might fight for what I believe in, but that has nothing to do with my country, although in some cases the two may be the same. In any case, fighting and dying is never sweet and rarely honourable, though it may be the grim necessity under some circumstances.

[Denny Crane!]

I assume you refer to the complex etymological roots of the word. Patria coming from Pater meaning father and the its conceptual component Paterfamillias, it became associated with the term father but also the land authority and dignity inherent with the position. Through time though this respect and authority became synonomous with the ideas of loyalty to ones family extending into clan and nation as respect for authority and devotion to ones compatriots. Hence the word Patriot anyway.

The derivative connotations given to the word and the expression have held true since it was first coined, indeed the word Patria is so closely linked both in history, culture and etymology that I think its worth making the disntinction that you don't agree with the phrase. By the time the phrase was said it meant exactly what was said in the OP and the notion never ever died out, if anything it became reinforced.

As an addendum I don't know what roman history you have read but the legions didn't fight for Rome they fought for themselves and their unit, roman army training instilled a fierce notion of the esprit de corps. Roman units were almost a family. I can't see the loyalty to Rome when there could be civil wars quite easily, that to me says loyalty to the army or rather blind obedience while sticking with the people you know. Either way not ideal but meh: off topic.

[Spurius]

So, the only question remains what they were *thinking* of when they said it.

Was that some vague notion, or very close to home? I think the latter.

[Denny Crane!]

So, the only question remains what they were *thinking* of when they said it.

Was that some vague notion, or very close to home? I think the latter.

Well considering the history of the word its obvious. People come to associate words with concepts, it doesn't matter what the word originally meant, its what it meant to people at the time and it had long come to mean something more than what you seem to believe.

This is obvious in the naming of the patrician class but also if we look at Cicero's writings where we see that he sees a wider patria in the res publica, so the common citizen was effected by the patria suo and the communis patria, loyalty to both city and state. None of this at this period of history reffers to the family but always to the citizenry be it on a city wide or national level.

[Farnan]

Translated as: "It is sweet and seemly to die for one's country."

This is what I believe this quote is equivalent to:



I prefer this quote:

"You do not win a war by dying for your country, you win a war by making the other poor bastard die for his." - Patton

or

"Your enemies duty is to die for his country. Your duty is to make sure he does his." - Anon (I believe)


Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam
(Something equally ridiculous, but its in Latin so it must be right)

[removeduser_487563287433]

This is what I believe this quote is equivalent to:

It's a satirical poem, Farnan.