does knowledge exist?

[Amorphos]

does knowledge exist?

‘is it not the actuality or presence of a thing that declares it to be what that something is’.

here we can divide knowledge into two kinds, holistic and actual - perhaps, i just use these two terms to differentiate between the kind of knowledge found in a library or the brain/computer, and the kind of knowledge which compose law and principle.

so basically i am asking what is knowledge as an existing entity/thing? if it can simply exist, yet without physical form? and how does it attach itself to or belong to things

kinds of knowledge:

1. knowledge based on existing ideas of the individualised entity [i.e. new ideas based on what you know]. can also be seen as knowledge of individual entity [what something is holistically and actual etc].
2. knowledge based on the group entity; this can be e.g. the knowledge peculiar to or of a given group. this can also be knowledge or grouped objects.
3. knowledge based on ideas of universal entity; if you counted all the knowledge/gnosis/wisdom known to the whole of existence i.e. all known things. may also been seen as the entity of ‘all-knowledge’.

[David Deas]

I think I have knowledge they're going to move this topic to Ethos.

[Amorphos]

well i wanted to see how people down here think of knowledge. specifically what it is.

[Maverick]

well i wanted to see how people down here think of knowledge. specifically what it is.

I think we inherit a capacity for language and the rest is observations of nature. Knowledge is the general consensus that what one person observed and communicated applies to everyone in every period of time. I don't think knowledge exists in any independent form, but there's definately something to be said for the coincidence(?) that a new idea once conceived sometimes inexplicably springs up around the globe like the pyramids for one. Maybe someone else knows more about this, I know there is some literature on the subject out there.

[Spurius]

I don't think knowledge exists in any independent form, but there's definately something to be said for the coincidence(?) that a new idea once conceived sometimes inexplicably springs up around the globe like the pyramids for one.

Nope, knowledge or information does not exist independently from a physical carrier, it always needs encoding/decoding in some form. It's a process more than anything else.

Pyramids are not such a prime example maybe - the invention of calculus is, by Newton and Leibniz concurrently, and by a Japanese mathematician a 100 years before that, even.

My idea on that, is that our societies are like networks, and you need numbers and specialisation levels (and spare resources) to achieve 'the next level'.
This would make such inventions more like 'network density' dependent functions. You need enough nodes and connections to get there.

Guess that's partly why the list of Chinese inventions is so impressive.

[Maverick]

Nope, knowledge or information does not exist independently from a physical carrier

What about all the television and radio waves we send out into space full of information?

[David Deas]

Electrical impulse patterns stemming from systematic chemical reactions taking place in the central nervous system of an organism would be the correct answer.

But somehow I don't sense your inquiry will be satisfied.

[Amorphos]

Electrical impulse patterns

...

how does the pattern describe itself? of what is the information to which it is composed?

stemming from systematic

...

and the description of those systems belongs to what?

chemical reactions in the nervous system of an organism.

...

what is the info in that nervous system composed of and how does it communicate.

etc etc

[David Deas]

...

how does the pattern describe itself?

This has already become silly even by Ethos standards.

The *first* thing a pattern does is describe itself. How could a pattern *not* describe itself?

[Amorphos]

The *first* thing a pattern does is describe itself. How could a pattern *not* describe itself?

how does it describe itself? what is the information composed of? what is knowledge made of - what is its reality! that is the question and that is why it is not silly to ask!





...and now for some intelligent debate

[David Deas]

No. It really is one of those pointless ass questions. One of those why, why, why, why, why, why, why, why, why chains that just goes on and on.

How about why this topic is in the totally wrong forum? It belongs parked right next to the 'you can't prove God doesn't exist' thread in Ethos.

[Amorphos]

No. It really is one of those pointless ass questions.

no. that is an arrogant and infantile statement.

i am trying to get to a fundamental nature of existence. i am sure some of the more intelligent posters will know what i mean.


anyone else for handbag swapping

[David Deas]

*Laughing*

You haven't even figured out the existence of capital letters yet, kid.

[Amorphos]

kid? i am 43! i don’t use capitals cos im la-z

[David Deas]

You're 43?

How embarassing.

[Amorphos]

You're 43?

How embarassing.

yes i should be above flame wars of course i cannot expect you to be

[David Deas]

WRONG FORUM

[Spurius]

There can be symbols without meaning, but not the reverse.

[Simetrical]

Epistemology is universally and correctly recognized as philosophy, not science. Moved from the Athenaeum to Ethos, Mores et Monastica.

[bubka]

Okay I have a feel for this kind of things now.
Do you feel everything has an absolute definition and description?
You have an empirical idea of knowledge of course, and that's all eveybody has. Trying to go deeper would unfortunately be a bit like those philosophers of antiquity, most of whom achieved nothing worth mentioning.
Of course, given a framework, knowledge assumes a form. Have you studied first order logic? If there is a first-order language L, it can assume a specific form depending on the structure it hangs on to, called an L-structure. This is something similar. Knowledge can be stored as information in brains and computers, and takes on structures according to the storage format.
That's all there is to it really. Nothing very philososphical. How the brain works is an entirely different question. I suggest you read Penrose on that.