Indefinitely Banned
Cold Fusion, it works.
To answer a question posed a few months ago, even on Wiki the info is available. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_fusion
I just finished reading a book on the argument. Will post more later, especially on the fact that apparently, some Alchemical formulas do work in producing gold and silver.
Centenarius
Re: Cold Fusion, it works.
wow:hmmm:
Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!"
In Hiatus
Re: Cold Fusion, it works.
Well, you can laugh, but one day that will power your cold shower, too. Thaw your fridges faster, maybe even as backup-power for your sun-dial. Numerous applications come to mind.
Re: Cold Fusion, it works.
I don't see what's wrong with hot fission.
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Civitate
Re: Cold Fusion, it works.
Well I believe you can use a particle accelerator (?) to turn lead into gold. The only problem being the particle accelerator costs more to run than the gold you could produce by it...
"Our opponent is an alien starship packed with atomic bombs," I said. "We have a protractor."
Under Patronage of: Captain Blackadder
Civitate
Re: Cold Fusion, it works.
I believe the US should get over the stigma of nuclear power and start building nuclear plants.Originally Posted by David Deas
"Our opponent is an alien starship packed with atomic bombs," I said. "We have a protractor."
Under Patronage of: Captain Blackadder
Former Chief Technician
Re: Cold Fusion, it works.
Fissile materials are relatively expensive and have some fairly nasty byproducts. Hydrogen is all but free by comparison, and has no especially radioactive byproducts.
Et Slot i et slot
Re: Cold Fusion, it works.
"It's pathological science, the results are impossible."
Dr. Douglas Morrison, CERN ,Geneva.
"It seems very promising to me that nuclear reactions may occur at room temperatures. I'm quite convinced there's something in this."
Arthur C. Clarke, science fiction writer, futurist, and funder of Infinite Energy magazine.
Statements like these prompt an obvious question: why haven't we heard about it?
Well, we have:
Is Cold fusion a real possibility? If the answer is yes then we have to assume a gigantic conspiracy of silence around the issue. And then we have to ask why?
On the other hand the alchemical part seems more promising. Did you say lots of gold, Ummon?
Re: Cold Fusion, it works.
Yeah. Well. Liberals have their downsides just like anybody else.
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Former Chief Technician
Re: Cold Fusion, it works.
Well, no, cold fusion isn't reliably possible yet, at least not usefully. Whether it technically is occurring reliably in certain processes is a matter of some reasonably serious debate among physicists right now, AFAIK, but in any case it's not useful yet even if it does technically happen. There's no reason to think it can't eventually be made to work, in any case.
Re: Cold Fusion, it works.
No. Its really not a matter of considerable debate.
Cold fusion is a fringe science. But that doesn't mean there isn't any money being pumped into research. After all, we do still hold seminars on perpetual motion. Some ideas live on because the hypothetical rewards associated with them are so revolutionary that people can't resist trying.
Probably the biggest issue with cold fusion is that it has no theoretical grounding in anything. In order to get fusion to occur, you need two positively charged protons to move close enough to one another so that the strong nuclear force can take over and pull the two proton's the rest of the way together, fusing them. That releases your energy. The problem is the positively charged protons are repelling each other very strongly. In order to overcome that repulsion, you need to give the protons enough energy to do that. And if the protons have enough energy to do that, then they are, by definition, very hot because they must be moving with a lot of kinetic energy. So no fusion reaction can possibly take place at room temperature. Regardless of their results, "fusion" must just be a name.
You constantly hear about misc crackpots claiming to have discovered cold fusion, but then they eventually disappear into the shadows. The reason for that is always the same. Its because their experimental results never actually show that any fusion is really taking place, and they don't have any real scientific theory behind their reports.
Last edited by David Deas; September 23, 2007 at 06:44 AM.
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Indefinitely Banned
Re: Cold Fusion, it works.
We haven't heard of this, probably, because it is an economic-establishment-shattering result.
In some experiments, palladium electrodes have melted during the experience. The additional heat is in the order of several hundred degrees, often.
Neutron emission, production of isotopes, and production of heat are now confirmed, and the explanation is consequent to Coherent Quantum ElectroDynamics.
An additional reason, is that initially the experiences were non-replicable systematically. The reason is that metallic electrodes and similar structures had to be saturated with deuterium or hydrogen up to a certain threshold for the phenomenon to occur.
The academic misbehaviour of Pons and Fleischmann did the rest, spawning a considerable amount of bigotry.
In any case gold and silver can be produced in moderate amounts, but also, radioactive waste can be made inert. Patents for these processes are already available.
Evidence currently is nonambiguous: it works.
Cold fusion has a very low waste output, and a very low radiation output.
Last edited by Ummon; September 23, 2007 at 03:17 AM.
Re: Cold Fusion, it works.
Just give me my breeder reactor and I'll be fine.
Sponsored by the Last Roman
Darkness is the light
Re: Cold Fusion, it works.
Welllll, if there is evidence you don't really need a theory at once to know it exists. Still sounds like magic. And it's no gigantic conspiracy, it suffices that no one believes it possible.
Re: Cold Fusion, it works.
Except that "fusion" is a theoretical term. So if you would, point me to the theory that says fusion can occur without tremendous heat and pressure? Or else what we have here isn't really fusion to start with. Its something else.
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In Hiatus
Re: Cold Fusion, it works.
You need at least a shrimp with powerful pincers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonoluminescence
Indefinitely Banned
Re: Cold Fusion, it works.
DD as usual is not-so-precise. I read the names of Royal society members, members of Italian National Institute for Physics of Matter, etc. in this book I just read.
And also: http://front.math.ucdavis.edu/author/G.Preparata
Now deceased, yet the main theorist.
Also:
And that is the wiki link above... It has been suggested that this very cautious outlook is mistaken on many issues. For example properties of the electrode would ease He4 + gamma ray outcomes instead of He3 + N. I find the doubtful stance obstructionistic, mostly.Experimental evidence
[edit] Measurement of excess heat
An infrared picture of hot spots on the cathode of a cold fusion cell. Presented by Szpak at ICCF10[10]The cold fusion researchers presenting their review document to the 2004 DoE panel on cold fusion said that the possibility of calorimetric errors has been carefully considered, studied, tested and ultimately rejected. They explained that, in 1989, Fleischmann and Pons used an open cell from which energy was lost in a variety of ways: the differential equation used to determine excess energy was awkward and subject to misunderstanding, and the method had an error of 1% or better. Recognizing these issues, SRI International and other research teams used a flow calorimeter around closed cells: the governing equations became trivial, and the method had an error of 0.5% or better. Over 50 experiments conducted by SRI International showed excess power well above the accuracy of measurement. Arata and Zhang observed excess heat power averaging 80 watts over 12 days. The researchers also said that the amount of energy reported in some of the experiments appeared to be too great compared to the small mass of the material in the cell for it to be stored by any chemical process. Their control experiments using light water never showed excess heat.[11] While Storms says that light water is an impurity that can kill the effect,[12] Miley and others have reported low energy nuclear reactions with light water.[13]
When asked about the evidence for power that cannot be attributed to an ordinary chemical or solid state source, the 2004 DoE panel was evenly split. Many of the reviewers noted that poor experiment design, documentation, background control and other similar issues hampered the understanding and interpretation of the results presented to the DoE panel. The reviewers who did not find the production of excess power convincing said that excess power in the short term is not the same as net energy production over the entire time of an experiment, that all possible chemical and solid state causes of excess heat had not been investigated and eliminated as an explanation, that the magnitude of the effect had not increased after over a decade of work, and that production over a period of time is a few percent of the external power applied and hence calibration and systematic effects could account for the purported effect.
Other purported evidence of heat generation not reviewed by the DoE included the detection of infrared hot spots (see picture in the lead section), the detection of mini-explosions by a piezoelectric substrate, and the observation of discrete sites exhibiting molten-like features that require substantial energy expenditure.[14][15]
[edit] Nuclear products
A CR-39 detector showing possible nuclear activity in cold fusion experiments at SSC San Diego.[16]For a nuclear reaction to be proposed as the source of energy, it is necessary to show that the amount of energy is related to the amount of nuclear products. When asked about evidence of low energy nuclear reactions, twelve of the eighteen members of the 2004 DoE panel did not feel that there was any conclusive evidence, five found the evidence "somewhat convincing" and one was entirely convinced.
If the excess heat were generated by the hot fusion of two deuterium atoms, the most probable outcome, according to current theory, would be the generation of either tritium and a proton, or a 3He and a neutron. The level of protons, tritium, neutrons and 3He actually observed in the Fleischmann-Pons experiment had been higher than current theory predicted, but well below the level expected in view of the heat generated, implying that these reactions cannot explain it.
If the excess heat were generated by the hot fusion of two deuterium atoms into Helium, a reaction which is normally extremely rare, 4He and gamma rays would be generated. Miles et al. reported that 4He was indeed generated in quantities consistent with the excess heat, but no studies have shown levels of gamma rays consistent with the excess heat.[17] Current nuclear theory cannot explain these results. Researchers are puzzled that some experiments produced heat without 4He.[18] Critics note that great care must be used to prevent contamination by helium naturally present in atmospheric air.[19]
Although there appears to be evidence of anomalous transmutations and isotope shifts near the cathode surface in some experiments, cold fusion researchers generally consider that these anomalies are not the ash associated with the primary excess heat effect.[20]
In 2006, nuclear activity was demonstrated by the use of standard nuclear track detectors made of CR-39. Photographs show scarring of the plastic disks, consistent with high energy nuclear radiation. The intensity and pattern of the scarring appears to rule out anomalous sources such as background radiation as the cause.[2][21][22] A project has been set up to facilitate its independent replication.[23]
[edit] Reproducibility of the result
The cold fusion researchers presenting their review document to the 2004 DoE panel on cold fusion said that the observation of excess heat has been reproduced, that it can be reproduced at will under the proper conditions, and that many of the reasons for failure to reproduce it have been discovered. Despite the assertions of these researchers, most reviewers stated that the effects are not repeatable.
In 1989, the DoE panel said: "Even a single short but valid cold fusion period would be revolutionary. As a result, it is difficult convincingly to resolve all cold fusion claims since, for example, any good experiment that fails to find cold fusion can be discounted as merely not working for unknown reasons."[24] While repeatability is critical for commercial applications, independent reproduction is the criterion used in the scientific method.
Cold fusion supporter Julian Schwinger said that it is not uncommon to have difficulty in reproducing a new phenomenon that involves ill-understood macroscopic control of a microscopic mechanism. As examples, he gave the onset of microchip studies, and the discovery of high-temperature superconductivity.[25]
Last edited by Ummon; September 23, 2007 at 07:38 AM.
Darkness is the light
Re: Cold Fusion, it works.
Theoretical term? What is that supposed to mean. If you have Deuterium in the apparatus and after some time you have Helium, there has to be some nuclear reaction, and fusion is how it is called. It doesn't matter how or why, or if it's weak force or strong force. Hydrogen is fused. No other theory necessary. Surely you need to explain it, but that explanation will not change the observation.
I'm not exactly convinced though that it's really happening. Would be cool, of course.
In Hiatus
Re: Cold Fusion, it works.
But there's no gamma radiation (which fusion 'requires'), and the alphaparticles (H4) could be pollution from the equipment, or radon gas, whatever.
Indefinitely Banned
Re: Cold Fusion, it works.
The funny side, is that you don't just have Helium, but a lot of other elements, and in particular, Strontium. Now, that one is very rare, thus contamination can be excluded. Additionally, and this is the most interesting part, isotope proportions in Strontium as revealed after cold fusion (electro-alchemy) is performed, are the same one would expect from Rubidium, and very different from those of natural Strontium.
To me, this is decisive evidence.
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