Germans.. who to pick in an army? (and defense question)

[Renegen]

I'm playing RTR as the Germans right now and I'm having some troubles in selecting armies. Actually this applies to general army selection for any campaign.
Here's the problem: do I select the numerous low-tech soldiers or the few high tech soldiers?

(in general) do I select the Gathesaz(240 men) spearmen or the Thundaz(160) spearmen?

Gathesaz
240 men
8 attack
10 missile
6 charge
21 defense( no armor)

Thundaz
160 men
16 attack
10 missile
8 charge
24 defense( no armor)


The answer in this case tends towards the Thundaz, but it's not that easy. Here is my choice for Gallic soldiers, who a few of my towns can recruit:

Gallic Warband
240 men
8 attack
19 defense( no armor)

Gallic Swordmen
160 men
12 attack
18 defense( no armor)

Are the high tech units always superior? Do the decisions change once all units units have experience and upgrades?

Also how is combat decided. Let's say out of 240 men only 50 are in hand to hand combat, do only those 50 "fight"? If that's the case then having few strong units is obviously better as 1 on 1 they will always defeat the inferior units.

Finally, how important is armor, I heard it's calculated differently. Actually please explain to me the 3 kinds of defense, armor, defense skill, shield. Are they equal? Which is important? Which is used in combat, archer fire etc

[florin80]

Are you playing Gold or Platinum? Not that this matters, but there is already a discussion on german tactics/strategies in the RTRPE sub-forum. Maybe you want to join that and keep it all in one big thread. Of course, this is just a suggestion, you`re more then welcomed to continue with this thread.

[Renegen]

I'm playing Platinum, thank you for the link I wasn't aware of it. Mostly though my problem extends to every army. Do you pick the few elite ones or the numerous low tech ones? I don't know what the impact of NUMBERS makes in the grand sceme of things. Hence also the question about how fighting is calculated.

And of course my question about defense, how are the 3 components of defense treated? How important is defense? etc.

[florin80]

Theoretically at least, the three defense branches are used as this:
armor - from attacks comming from any side, including missiles I think.
shield - only against attacks coming from the front and the vanilla EDU says that it counts against attaks coiming from the left too.
defense skills - only from the front I think and it should also not count when the unit is shot at.

Or maybe you were wondering what effect these have when you autoresolve. In which case I can`t give an answer.

[Exekutor]

I would recruit both, more of the Gathesaz to get a big battle line and to pine the enemy down, the Thundaz to flank the enemy (with cav). IIRC Thundaz have a wide formation, which makes them very bad at holding the enemy in place. Since RTRPE is pretty good balanced, I doubt a army of only elite will be a good idea (apart from the monster upkeep).

[andipandy123]

The germanic troops are quite remarkable. They throw multiple rounds of javelin if you let them before they even get attacked and after that its finishing the remnants.

[Vates Ignifer]

"Joint Arms" is the way to go, I think. Pretty much every unit has its own advantages. Mercs are often of lower quality, but they don't reduce your town population.

Infantry:
- Iuwunga Frankaz - the only German skirmishers. (Currently I have no I.F. in my main army so I have to improvise)
- Franka Gathesaz - inexpensive, can be stretched out to a wide front line (I usually go 4 ranks deep)
- Mercs: Aujô Wrakhoz, Framae Germani are inferior stat-wise, but are quite cheap and can be used as fodder.
- Wilthiaz Biaraz - "Heavy" infantry with over 220 men per unit, they don't have exceptional stats but make up for that with numbers.
- Frumor Thundaz - the most balanced German heavy infantry, but have a loose formation, as Exekutor said. They are also very disciplined. Use purely for offense.
- Swarta Skelthuz - average stats but morale bonus, inspire friendlies, scare enemy troops. So your general can go out hunting.
- Austa Sachsaz - can't remember atm but I think they are not quite as good as Frumor Thundaz
- Semnone Sachsaz - expensive to recruit, very expensive upkeep (400+ per turn!), small units, and once they go berserk you can't control them anymore. BUT if you deploy them cleverly they can and will wreak havoc among your enemies. Also, having 2HP makes them worth more than twice their number.

Non-German mercs:
- Gauls are mostly fodder, only the Gallic Noble cavalry has some merit, because the Germans don't have heavy cavalry besides the Keusanan Wrakhoz.
- Sarmatian cavalry and archers are both very good to have and worth every penny.
- Bastarnae mercenaries are maybe the best infantry you can recruit, with very good attack and defense scores. I always put them where I expect the fight to be hardest.

So I think it's best to mix and match your troops. Don't buy 18 Franka Gathesaz or 18 Frumor Thundaz, and not even 9 of each, but maybe 4 of each and fill the rest up with cavalry and the other troop types.

To compare, when I play with Rome, I use 1 General, 1-2 Equites, 2 Velites, 4-5 Hastati, 2-4 Principes, 1-2 Triarii, 1 Archers (Sagittarii?), and whatever "fillers" make sense.

It's also important to consider your supply lines. If you fight abroad it can easily take 6 turns or so fo reinforcements to arrive, especially Elite troops that you can only recruit in your capital or core cities. So I advise to reserve about 3 slots per army for locally recruited mercenaries (quasi auxiliares), that you can throw in the battle first, let them take the heaviest casualties, because you can refresh these most easily.

Another way to keep your army at full strength is have a backup army nearby, with some of every troop type, and after heavy battles merge units to compensate for your losses.

[andipandy123]

what he said and also dont forget the fire at will button when defending. just watch the enemy die on those pretty javelins.

[Vates Ignifer]

Whee... last night I had some really intense battles. My faction leader (and army general) has even received a new byname: the artist formerly known as Hariulfus the Cunning has become Hariulfus the Conqueror. Also, by consequently attacking at night, I extended my night fighting bonus from +1 to +3. Whopping!

Putting theory to good use:

Divide et impera - this is a key to success on both the strategic and the tactical map. If the Macs (of anyone) have, say, three half-stacks in the area, attack them one by one. Do so at night, and in most cases they won't be able to assist each other (only few generals have Night Fighter). It is easier to fight three armies of 700 than one of 2000. Especially since in a battle with reinforcements, the enemy will often come from multiple sides and outflank you sooner or later.

On the battle map, do the same and try to take on the enemy army in small chunks. Rather often the AI is stupid enough to do this for you, i.e. when they have 8 units of chalkispides, they march in two by two and you can pick them off easily.

Kill the brainbug first: as I said before, and I can't stress this highly enough, locate the enemy general right at the beginning of the encounter and send your heavy horses after him.
This way, today I finally managed to kill that bloody 5-star general that evaded me on the strategic map so often -- this time he came to assist a small army I attacked, and fell victim to my Sarmatian cavalry. I suffered relatively heavy losses in that battle (about 130 casualties versus 700 kills, the rest fled), but killing that general was worth it. Besides, earlier that round I routed two armies with minimal casualties so I can't complain.

Also, have a look at the enemy units (use a spy for this). You will notice most Mac troops have through-the-roof defense (40-something) but rather low attack (around 9). So they are not all that formidable.
There is one Mac elite infantry, Hypaspistai or something, which are sort of a "guard of honour" (so the description says). Thing is, they don't have exceptional stats but inspire nearby troops. So kill these whenever you get the chance to speed up the routing.

When an enemy Phalanx unit is running away (not necessarily routing, just withdrawing from the battlefield) you can crush them from behind with your heavy horses. They will suffer so many losses in that single moment that they will instantly rout.
BUT don't do this if the Phalangites are just moving around on the battlefield and not withdrawing; odds are if their morale is still high, they will fight back and then it goes ill for your riders.

I also was reminded how important it is to stay on the strategic offensive. After my last turn today, my army was jumped by three enemy armies, and in the defending role my general dropped from 10 stars to a measly 4. I suffered rather heavy casualties in that battle (700 or so), but I was already tired so I didn't save the game before quitting.

[Exekutor]

Command stars aren't really important in tactical battles. They give a bit moral bonus iirc, but that's it. Use your troops right and you don't need any command stars
(autoresolve is different ofc)

[andipandy123]

i dont like germania too much. illyria are a lot more solid once theiir hoplaitii kick in and when the gauls get chosen units the javelins dont seem to kill that many. against phalanx formations i find it impossible.

[Vates Ignifer]

Well, I suppose everyone has their own preferred combat style. I'm a newbie at this game and have no trouble achieving a 10:1 kill ratio with Germans vs Macedons. Just cast some expendables to their fronts and flank them with your heavies. The only thing impossible about Macedon is their neverending stream of armies rushing in. They wage a war of attrition against me and I don't know how I am supposed to win that.

[andipandy123]

you need a navy and blockade their ports. they need money to make armies. if you have good assasins destroy their key buildings like barracks and money making facilities.

[Vates Ignifer]

Alright, thanks, I'll try some of that. Although Mac has probably around 40 provinces and I have maybe 20, so they are simply making much more money than me. I'll be sending some assassins down there.

[MasterOfThessus]

You guys would have loved the AAR that The Bard did in the old RTR forums...... It was a truly magical German AAR...